| By Jason A. Churchill |  | By 07-27-2011 |
The Seattle Mariners have lost 17 games in a row. True. They have fallen into last place in the 4-team American League West. True. They are now 15 games behind the Texas Rangers in the loss column and have once again set a record-threatening pave of offensive futility. True. As a result, they should now plan on raising payroll into the $130 million-plus range or higher, change their stance on trading Felix Hernandez and should fire Eric Wedge and Jack Zduriencik. False.
Felix Hernandez
The argument for trading Hernandez makes sense on the surface -- he's worth a ton and his value may never be higher, and the return could very well fill more than one hole in the club's everyday lineup -- but if Hernandez is traded, for example, sometime between today and the start off the 2012 season, all of a sudden an unproven Michael Pineda and two No. 4 starters in Jason Vargas and Doug Fister have to carry the workload and lead the staff. Do the M's win consistently then? Of course not.
The time to seriously consider trading Hernandez may very well come in the next 12-36 months, at which time the club's GM, whoever it is at the time, will be charged with one of the most difficult tasks in franchise history. But that time is now now.
If the Mariners wish to add impact offensive players, it has to come largely by trade, since hitters don't generally want to come to Seattle with it's weather and travel or play at Safeco. For the first time in more than three years, the M's have some young, developed talent that other clubs covet, and they'll have to be willing to move it to fix the offense.
Eric Wedge
There have been times when one could question moves by Wedge, including leaving a starter in too long or pulling him too early. Wedge has had very little to work with, however, and for the most part has done fine -- even his handling of the young outfielders.
Firing Wedge doesn't help one single bit, and the one thing we haven't heard anything about is Wedge losing the team.
Jack Zduriencik
Firing Zduriencik makes less sense than canning Wedge, since you probably have to get a new skipper if you pull the plug on the front office, too.
Zduriencik is three seasons into a project to clean up a mess left by Bill Bavasi, and while the team has now had two disastrous seasons in a row, bringing in a new general manager means another start-over session.
Plus, for every Chone Figgins signing and trade of Brandon Morrow there's a Dustin Ackley, Jason Vargas and David Aardsma. It's not time to pull the plug, though next season's seat might be awfully hot.
Payroll
We don't have any idea what the M's future plans are when it comes to payroll and there's a good chance they don't know yet, either. Expecting a significant increase -- one that would allow for major free-agent deals and/or the acquisition of multiple players with existing large contracts, is simply asking way too much.
An increase is possible, however, but as usual any additional monies will have to spent wisely. A repeat of 2004 can't happen. Heck, a repeat of Figgins can't happen.
Fans are going to have to get used the idea that Pineda or prospects James Paxton or Taijuan Walker, among others, will have to be sacrificed in order to climb out of the quicksand. But that's drastic, not silly or reactionary. Changes have to be made after a 17-game losing streak. But heads don't have to roll.
drastic,-yes,-not-reactionary,-silly
Comments
The following 57 comment(s) for this article are shown below:
| 1. By: Lonnie on 07-27-2011 03:29:44 Well put, Jason. It is definately not the time for knee-jerk reactions. Lonnie |
| 2. By: hxchairstylist on 07-27-2011 03:49:31 I feel as if I've had this conversation with you already... Oh wait, I did. While I was cutting your hair today. I see that you indeed did go home and "stay up thinking about this" as you mentioned you would. |
| 3. By: jase411 on 07-27-2011 03:55:00 Good write up Jason. What kind of a value would prospects like Walker or Paxton be able to bring? Could either alone be the centerpiece along with a couple of lesser prospects like a Liddi or Triunfel to land an above-average/possible all star bat? I guess I am just trying to guage their value in the eyes of the rest of the ML clubs. Thanks for your always informative and insightful info! |
| 4. By: Marco on 07-27-2011 05:23:18 That's when I like your comments more Jason, the club should stay cool and do not deflect from its planning. You're completely right when you say that firing Wedge and/or Zduriencik would mean to lose all experience gained in the last couple of years being forced to start again from zero. |
| 5. By: Docmilo on 07-27-2011 09:34:13 There could be arguments on the "3 years into the Bavasi mess". We would have to come to agreement that the whole mess was Bavasi's. I feel Lincoln and Armstrong had their fingers in that mud pie and that carried over to the signing of Junior and Sweeney for 2 years. I am sure some here could argue that had Zduriencik been given the green light on rebuilding 3 years ago perhaps they don't bring in an aging DH type that consumed so many ABs. I really feel that although Zduriencik has been here 3 years, this is really the first year he has completely been given the green light to clean the mess up. |
| 6. By: safecochatter on 07-27-2011 10:19:03 #5 that's quite the sugar coating.. Jack has had 3 years and his on field teams are getting worse. as in not better. nobody is asking for WS. nobody is asking for a division title. he's had 3 years to put a 500 team on the field and has failed.. badly. looks like another top 5 draft pick in 2012. surely there must be some good pitching available in the top 5 next year.. |
| 7. By: aerichner on 07-27-2011 10:27:36 @6, Yeah b/c Jack knew Figgins would suck, Ichiro would turn into the worst right fielder, Cust wouldnt hit for power, Gutierrez would have health problems that would zap the little power he had, Smoak would go into a prolonged struggle...CMON MAN The only thing that has hurt his club (long term) was the Figgins signing which at the time, if it wasnt good, it was interesting and if you didnt like it at the time you got around to liking the idea of having two leadoff men hitting back to back (possibly) being on base for your best hitters. He just couldnt hit a lick, oh well. The Sweeney, Griffey, et al signing, who cares..little money and little time was spent there. With every year passing there's less and less of Bavasi on this team/organization and I like it. I'm excited about what we have in the minor leagues and with time it will translate to the major league team. |
| 8. By: baseballman on 07-27-2011 10:59:07 Re: 6, Bill is that you? |
| 9. By: masonb on 07-27-2011 11:50:43 Meanwhile it looks like the Cards just traded Rasmus for Edwin Jackson, Octavio Dotel, and Mark Rzepsynski(I know I spelled that wrong). After seeing that, I have a hard time believing that Fister, League and Pauley and maybe a prospect like Saunders or Chavez wouldn't have gotten that done. Am I right or simply overvaluing the pieces we have? |
| 10. By: StandinPat on 07-27-2011 11:52:45 @6 A couple of things, Jack has not yet completed year number 3, and I'm not sure what miracles you were expecting him to perform. When he got here the 25 man was shit, the 40 man was shit, the farm system was shit and the payroll had massive chunks of money tied up in shit. What exactly did you expect him to do with almost nothing in terms of major league talent to trade for prospects, prospects to trade for major leaguers, payroll flexibility to go out and add talent, or a Front Office that would actually allow for a true rebuild? |
| 11. By: dawgncarolina on 07-27-2011 11:53:36 Wow that's sickening if true. The legend of AA only continues to grow. That dude may just give the Yanks/Sox/Rays a run. |
| 12. By: kjt0004 on 07-27-2011 11:57:45 At least the Chone Figgins signing was understandable at the time, at least more so than Bavasi's signing of Scott Spiezio back in the day. So if Big Z avoids signing Spiezio this off season he is good in my book!! |
| 13. By: StandinPat on 07-27-2011 12:04:07 That is a god awful trade for the Cardinals. Very much reminds me of the Dan Haren trade last year, and if that's all it took to get him, why weren't we in on that? |
| 14. By: aerichner on 07-27-2011 12:08:03 The Mariners called as was reported already but the Cardinals have to like our pieces as much as we (the fans) do. Why they want Edwin Jackson? I dont know but maybe Dave Duncan can fix him + Dotel is Type B and Alphabet helps them this season but still is just a reliever. I dont know and I dont get it. Hopefully it falls through. |
| 15. By: aerichner on 07-27-2011 12:09:04 aaaaand it didnt fall through. Olney says" The trade: Colby Rasmus, Trever Miller, Brian Tallet and P.J. Walters for Jackson, Marc Rzepczynski, Dotel and Corey Patterson." Whatever, that sucks. |
| 16. By: masonb on 07-27-2011 12:20:10 Wow, the Jays just traded a bunch of crap and got Rasumus back. Unbelievable. What are the Cards thinking? And I must be biased, but I'd much rather have Fister, League and another prospect to what they just received for Rasmus. This has to be what the rest of baseball felt like when we got Cliff Lee for virtually nothing. Pissed |
| 17. By: nater on 07-27-2011 12:42:10 I think Jack does deserve one more year. His plan to restock the farm system is clearly working. The one thing he hasn't been able to do is go on a free agent spending spree. The budget he's worked with so far has been the equivalent of giving a kid $1,000 to go out and buy a new car. I'm giving him a mulligan on Figgins -- made sense at time: after seeing the power-hitting 3B experiment fail in Safeco, try someone who relies on OBP and speed to replace him. I hope, with Bradley and Jack Wilson contracts off the books after the season, that the FO will give him a longer leash to acquire some impact bats. If, however, they do cut payroll on him, I don't see how anyone can expect any short term improvement. |
| 18. By: acqb1424 on 07-27-2011 13:25:37 Jason, Please weigh in on the Rasmus trade to TOR. Would One of Vargas or Fister, League, and Guti beat that deal? Or prospects like Saunders, Chavez, Peguero, etc? I feel like we could've blown that offer out of the water. |
| 19. By: StandinPat on 07-27-2011 13:34:51 Jackson is a better pitcher than either Fister or Vargas, although there is a decent argument that Fister being under team control for another 3 years gives him more value. League is considerably better than Dotel, and under control for another year. Rzepczynski might be the best "get" for the Cards in this deal. Cheap, has experience in the pen and as a starter. Patterson, solid 4th OF type. I think the Ms coulda crushed that deal. |
| 20. By: rjfrik on 07-27-2011 13:53:22 Why in gods name weren't we in on this Rasmus trade. Literally all the Bluejays gave up were three MLB relievers, a fringy MLB OF and good (not great) pitching prospect. What did that get them? Colby, Tehan, a reliever and an organizational arm. Are you fucking kidding me? Pardon my french but this is ridiculous. We literally could of sent off Pauley, Gray and Wright as our releivers, Beaven as the young good pitching prospect and Franklin Guiterrez and we would of completely upgraded our CF position, added a 3B/LF who is just as good as we run out there now and a crappy reliever. What the hell is going on here Jack. Also while we are at it. We could of obtained a power hitting LF Gomes who will have at least B comp after the year for a AAAA 1b/OF who will never make the show (we have tons of those) and a low minors relief pitcher who really doesn't have the stuff to make the show. Why wouldn't we do that either. If this is how easy it is to get some players on this team we need to start making some damn moves. These trades baffle me. |
| 21. By: StandinPat on 07-27-2011 13:57:00 "We could of obtained a power hitting LF Gomes who will have at least B comp after the year" CBA runs out in December, no guarantee comp system will be the same or even exist for that matter. |
| 22. By: aerichner on 07-27-2011 14:03:23 is Jonny Gomes better than Mike Carp? #thingstoponderatnight Did it occur to you that maybe the M's did offer the "AAAA 1b/OF who will never make the show...and a low minors RP" but maybe the Reds liked the ones they go from the Nationals more? c'mon man and no, I dont think the team went after Gomes, just an example in that while we think our players/package is better, the team on the other side has to feel the same way. |
| 23. By: rjfrik on 07-27-2011 14:11:28 aerichner, Here is a profile of that trade. I will ask the question once again. Why would we not get the guy just for the sake of getting him especially when it doesn't cost a thing. Crappy minor league players who will never make the show. As stated before Gomes nets a B comp pick (I understand your point about that Pat but it's in place now) and would be one of our better power hitters immediately and his salary is nill. He could be a nice RH DH option at the very least. Why not do it? Jonny Gomes, LF, 30 Gomes has hit 15-20 home runs in a season five different times. Last year for the Reds he hit .266/.336 with 18 home runs and 86 RBIs. He has struggled mightily this year, batting just .211/.336 with 11 home runs and 31 RBIs. He’s a well below-average defender in left field. He’s a leader in the clubhouse and plays with high energy and enthusiasm. The Nationals picked him up for practically nothing and will eventually get a sandwich pick in next year’s draft for him. Chris Manno, LHP, 22 Manno was the Nationals' 38th-round selection in the June draft. Last year for the Nationals' Gulf Coast League team, he was 1-1 with a 2.50 ERA in 18 innings pitched. This year at Hagerstown of the South Atlantic League, he was 1-3 with a 1.04 ERA in 34 games -- all in relief. His fastball is 83-86 with above-average command. His best pitch is an average curveball that he utilizes in striking out much younger competition. He has above-average deception. Both his slider and change are below average. He pitches across his body. He does not have enough stuff to project to the major leagues. Bill Rhinehart, 1B/OF, 26 Rhinehart was the Nationals' 11th-round selection in the 2007 draft. He has played both first base and corner outfield in the Nationals' system. He is having his best offensive season of his career, batting .283/.376/.587 with 21 home runs and 59 RBIs for the Double-A Harrisburg club of the Eastern League. Rhinehart is swinging the bat well because he finally learned how to deal with the outer part of the plate. He is a below-average defender in the outfield, but he is close to average at first base. He’s a Triple-A player, tops, that might get a cup of coffee in the show. |
| 24. By: rjfrik on 07-27-2011 14:13:34 I know without a doubt we could of offered a better package of crap for Gomes. A relief pitcher who pithces 83-86 MPH with average command and 26 year old AA player who can't really hit. Come on. And don't get me started about the Rasmus trade. Wow. |
| 25. By: Saltydawg05 on 07-27-2011 14:28:42 Gomes sucks. He is a terrible, terrible fielder (-24.9 UZR career). RH power hitters fail in Safeco. Why would you give up two prospects and pay him? Type B compensation (if it even still exists) would probably be nothing more than a pick at the end of the 3rd round. How does this help now or in the future? |
| 26. By: DAMellen on 07-27-2011 14:35:13 Have you guys heard anything about Smoak's thumb? I've read a few places that it is still really bothering him (he missed a game with a hurt thumb right before his slump started, was at .264/.366/.488 at the time). I can't tell if it's just an excuse or a legitimate problem. I mean, you'd think if it was really bad enough to make him hit like this (.132/.220/.176 since missing that game), they'd put him on the DL or something. That said, I'd rather him be stupidly playing through an injury than actually this bad so I'm hoping it's just that. |
| 27. By: Edman on 07-27-2011 14:39:11 On the internet, all trades are possible. Why? Because they aren't based in fact. They're based on the assumption that everyone in the Mariner system is as good or better than what other teams have offered. Why not get you started about the Rasmus deal. Exactly what has Rasmus shown, other than projected value? His numbers have been in decline the last two years. Yet, some of you act like it's a foregone conclusion that he's going to be a great player. It amazes me how certain names get bantered about and hold onto their "promise", even though they've done nothing, so far, to meet those projections. Certainly Jack was aware of his availability. And most certainly, he wasn't willing to give up what the Cardinals demanded in return. Don't assume that you know what any other team would accept. Just because you think what Seattle has to offer is valuable, doesn't mean that other team GM's agree with your assessments. |
| 28. By: nighthawk180 on 07-27-2011 14:48:30 I read somewhere this morning but cant find it at this moment that Rasmus has some coaching issues. It was quoted by La Russa that he wont listen to the coaching staff and was starting to cause inner turmoil with the team. I wish I could find it but that is the last thing we need on this team right now. I would like to have a player of that caliber or has that much potential but not with that attitude. Just like Edman said he has declined the past two years and with thinking he knows everything too is not a good sign. I see a MB clone good promise but failing attitude. Just my $.02 Nighthawk180 |
| 29. By: StandinPat on 07-27-2011 14:54:48 " As stated before Gomes nets a B comp pick (I understand your point about that Pat but it's in place now)" That's an argument completely void of logic. You won't get a pick based on what the system was in 2011, but rather what it is in 2012. "The Nationals picked him up for practically nothing and will eventually get a sandwich pick in next year’s draft for him." In case you haven't been paying attention to the past couple of offseasons, draft pick compensation is a huge hot button issue, and surely something the Players, and some Owners, will look to get rid off. You simply can't bank of getting a pick for him as part of his value. "Exactly what has Rasmus shown, other than projected value?" 2.8 WAR as a 23yr old and 4.3 WAR as a 24yr old "His numbers have been in decline the last two years." 2.8 to 4.3 is an increase, he's only showed a decline this year, a year in which crazy ass Tony La Russa has decided to jerk him around. "Don't assume that you know what any other team would accept." You mean like declaring League, Bedard, others won't bring back anything of value when you have no idea what other teams are willing to part with? |
| 30. By: marinermutt on 07-27-2011 15:33:47 To get a B comp, you must offer arbirtration. Gomes is not playing well this year. That is a fact or the Reds wouldn't have dumped him. What are the odds he would decline arbirtration next winter. He'll make more in arbirtration than he would as a free agent coming off a bad year. If he is a free agent, next year he signs with somebody as a minor league free agent with an invite to spring training. Bet ya he he isn't offered arbirtration by the Nationals unless he really improves in August and September. |
| 31. By: aerichner on 07-27-2011 15:39:19 Maybe Im wrong here, but I dont think you need to offer arbitration to type Bs to earn the pick... |
| 32. By: safecochatter on 07-27-2011 15:44:06 re 8 not bill. just a fan in section 106 taking his (5)season ticket monies elsewhere in 2012. oh look..jack got his ass kicked by blue jays again.. there's a surprise.. |
| 33. By: aerichner on 07-27-2011 16:00:01 go to Tacoma. "Jack got his ass kicked by the Blue Jays again" - that's one of the most laughable statements i've seen here in a while |
| 34. By: baseballman on 07-27-2011 16:15:39 So safecochatter has officially lost it...check. Anyways to the other sane and level headed fans here, JAC posted on his twitter something pretty interesting about the Rasmus trade: The question was asked by @Shane_FacloSEA: "@ProspectInsider could you give a #Mariner comp package for what #Tor gave up for Rasmus?" Here was JAC's response: "@Shane_FalcoSEA No, because there isn't one. Bulk deal to help STL mostly now. Seattle doesn't have that." So for trolls like safecochatter and everyone else up in arms that we didn't get Rasmus, JAC himself said we didn't match up with STL. And guess what...IT HAPPENS! Like Edman said, just because you overrate our players doesn't mean every single club does as well. |
| 35. By: rjfrik on 07-27-2011 16:40:31 Aerichner, You do have to offer arbitration. You could easily negotiate that with Gomes, happens all the time. Pat you are acting like it's definitive that the Type A B Free agents rankings and comps are going to go out the window. You have no idea if that is going to happen or not and its wild speculation on your part. It "could" happen but it also "could not". I'm on the side to think that MLB will not throw the small market teams under the bus by taking it away. I'm pretty confident, in my own judgement and opinion that it will stay. The type B isn't the point with Gomes, if you could net a draft pick after the second round in the draft next year when/if he walks then that is an added bonus and I risk I would take. The issue is the Nat's didn't give up a thing. The two players the Reds acquired are worthless, go look at their peripherals and stats, they aren't any good. All I'm saying is that even though Gomes may not be great, he is better then a few of the players the M's have been throwing out in LF and DH and he could possibly return an extra draft pick. Those are the type of players we should be swinging deals for. It's all about value and the value is clearly in Gomes, not the other two players. I guess you can play devils advocate, like Edman, and say we don't know what the two value of the players the Reds got in return are because we aren't their GM. I guess there are GM's such as Bavasi that don't know how to value palyers, so maybe Ed is right. But it's not just me who thinks the Nats got better value in this deal. The descriptions I pasted in the thread above are not from me, they are from a former baseball GM who was critiquing the trade. He also thinks the Reds got hosed. And that same GM thinks the Cards got really hosed. Rasmus is a damn good player and as stated before all the Jays gave up are 3 relievers, a fringy OF and a good (not great) pitching prospect. In return they received Rasmus, Tehan, a MLB reliever and an organizational arm. ONE HELL OF A DEAL! |
| 36. By: pwhit44 on 07-27-2011 16:41:21 I am not only "used to the idea" that one or more of Pineda/Walker/Paxton will have to be "have to be sacrificed", I am whole-heartedly advocating it. If at least one of those three is not moved for someone who can hit in the 3-hole or cleanup on Opening Day 2012, I will frankly be furious. This team has all the peripheral parts they can shake a stick at. They need the two big sticks. Simple as that. If that means one or two of those arms are gone, fine. Ichiro Ackley ?????? ?????? Smoak blah dee frickin dah |
| 37. By: rjfrik on 07-27-2011 16:50:23 Baseballman, I see Jason's point. But Ed and now you keep saying we overrate our players. I don't think that statement is true at all. I think we (or at least I am) are taking a very level headed approach about the value of what was given up and what was received. I am not only a fan of the M's but a big big fan of baseball. I follow most teams very closely and players equally as close. I feel I can give an unbiased opinion on players value and worth and I think a lot of posters that think the Cards got hosed can give the same unbiased opinion. It's not exactly rocket science. Now, as you said, maybe we just didn't have all the parts to give the Cards but when you really look at what the Jays gave up to get the return they got it seems like we could of possibly come up with a package similar. I think that is what most people are miffed about. It's in the moment, it just happened. In a day or two this will be yesterdays news but as of now it's relevant and good for conversation. Jays gave up this Zack Stewart SP Jason Frasor RP Octavio Dotel RP Mark Rezpcznyski RP Corey Patterson OF To get this Colby Rasmus OF Mark Tehan 3B/OF Brain Tallet RP P.J. Walters RP |
| 38. By: VikingArthur on 07-27-2011 16:59:32 I am going to weigh in on the Rasmus trade. (Sorry about the length of this). The Cards want to win THIS year clearly. Jackson will help them more than Fister or Vargas in that pursuit. Jackson has the type of stuff that, given time, Duncan can make into a legit #2-3 starter in the NL. The other guys in the deal give STL some experienced depth. I am not as high on Rasmus as others are.. but he could be a good player but I hate the NL to AL conversion with a player like him. That said... I would have gladly given up Guti, Vargas and some other relievers for him but maybe STL thought (presumably) that the TOR deal was better. As for Gomes... given that the M's play in Safeco I don't think you could make a logical case that he is better than Mike Carp. Carp is starting to prove that if you put him the lineup and let him play nearly everyday that he can produce. I would be 10000% comfortable with him as the primary DH next year who would occasionally play in LF (he is very Ibanez like in LF from my view). I think we should be talking to Arizona about Wily Mo to be our DH next year. Give them Wilson and pay most of his salary. Put Carp in LF (with Halman as the defensive replacement 4th OF) and let Wily Mo DH for 550 ABs... Safeco (and Yellowstone) for that matter would have little effect with Wily's 80+ power. Would hit above .200? Probably not but I have little doubt he would hit 25-30 HRs and knock in 80. Put him behind Smoak and in front of Carp. Next Year... Ichi Ryan Ackley Smoak Pena Carp Olivo Someone competent at 3b Guti/Halman Put that lineup together and you have something that could possibly be league average. The best part is that this won't break the bank OR cost us much in terms of trading prospects. Just my two cents.. |
| 39. By: Edman on 07-27-2011 17:09:45 I do believe that Arizona released Pena, so it's just a matter of signing him, if he's willing. |
| 40. By: rjfrik on 07-27-2011 17:12:22 Tomorrow the Beltran deal will be official. Beltran and 4 Million to Giants for Wheeler. Not a bad return by the Mets. Wheeler should be very good. |
| 41. By: Slack on 07-27-2011 17:16:22 I would certainly hate to sacrifice Pineda, Paxton or Walker but if it makes the M's better, then so be it! |
| 42. By: TroyD on 07-27-2011 17:24:06 Jays are also giving up 3 PTBNL who could be guys they drafted this year or International Free Agents that were recently signed. This could cost them a whole lot more. Isnt one of the Jays top tier prospects on the DL as well? So they gave up more than first indicated....could also b cash as well. So it was essentially a 7 for 4 swap. or cash. Wait til we know all the players traded before we start bell aching on what could have been.... |
| 43. By: rightwingrick on 07-27-2011 18:18:55 Couldn't agree more on Felix, Wedge, and Jack Z. Couldn't agree less on Paxton and Walker. I think Paxton was an absolute draft steal, and was very rusty in his first few games out. But since then he has overmatched his competition at every level, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was in Tacoma (AAA) soon and in Seattle in September. He's a potential #2 starter, it seems to me, and only 22. His potential value in the rotation far exceeds his trade value. Walker is 18, and there is talk that he may be one of the top 10 right-handers in the minors already. There may be a longer wait here, but this is how sustainable teams are built. Those two, plus Nick Franklin and Vinny Catricala seem to me untouchable. It seems to me that two of Blake Beavan, Doug Fister, Jason Vargas, and maybe Brandon League constitute our realistic trade bait at the moment. Houston wants a top pitching prospect for Hunter Pence....Texan Blake Beavan, anyone (along with Peguero, Triunfel). |
| 44. By: TroyD on 07-27-2011 18:23:35 Is Blake Beaven a top pitching prospect?NO BTW, Walker was #38 and #30 on the midseason top 50's I saw thus making him a top 5 RH prospect already. People think he may crack the Tp 20 overall if he continues what he has been doing. Agree Paxton was a good pick. Hultzen will be a good pitching prospect as well. Soetimes you have to give up something you dont want to; to get get something you need! |
| 45. By: VikingArthur on 07-27-2011 18:26:12 @43 You may be onto something on Beavan. I like him (quite a bit) but in the NL he'd be a cheap and attractive item to a team like Houston. That said... I think Pence would get eaten alive by Safeco, I have almost no interest in him. Also... I agree with you on Paxton. I honestly believe the M's could have Paxton at #4 and Hultzen at #5 in 2012 (along with Felix, Pineda and THE Fist) and roll with that. That makes Vargas, Beavan and all the rest prime trade bait. That said... you could have Beavan in the rotation instead of one of the two young guys and do it that way as well. The way I see it is that we MUST get a LF and a 3b in the offseason. Overpay a FA for one of the positions (if need be) and trade for the other. 1b, 2b, SS, RF, DH (Carp) and C are solid enough. Improve the 3b, LF and CF (hope for Guti to get back to 08-09) and I think you have something. Edman... if Pena is a FA now we should have him in our lineup yesterday. I see a lot of Russel Branyan in him... give him his first EVERYDAY shot and watch him put up nice numbers. |
| 46. By: TroyD on 07-27-2011 18:48:15 IMO hoping Guti goes back to 08-09 is not a good bet to make. Look at his stats he has hit over .255 once and had a OBP over .310 once when getting over 400 Ab's. Im betting he is better than this year but not too much better. I think his 2010 season is about what he is a .245-.250 hitter with a .307 OBP and .697 OPS guy not terrible but certainly not good by any means. He is a defensive player and at his peak a average hitter for hi position. |
| 47. By: rjfrik on 07-27-2011 19:07:04 Bottom line is we are going to have to trade something to improve the offense. Outside of Pujols, Fielder and Beltran there really isn't much in the way of F.A.'s next year. We have a lot of good pitching and that is what's going to have to be moved to get any upgrades in the offense and we just might have to deal one of our young studs. I do think Vargas and Beavan and Bedard can be had this year for the right price. I think the F.O. would feel very comfortable going into next year with King, Prince, Fist, Paxton as your top four guys. |
| 48. By: TroyD on 07-27-2011 19:10:06 You wanted Wily Mo Pena well he is signed |
| 49. By: jgstecker on 07-27-2011 19:13:52 Once Wily Mo is up we shouldn't hear any more complaints about a lack of aggression from Wedge. |
| 50. By: VikingArthur on 07-27-2011 19:48:51 Wow!! I really had no clue they were even considering him..just a guy that I thought could be very helpful and no risk. AWESOME! FREE WILY! Cut Cust and unleash Wily! Watch... he'll go 0 for 25 with 22 k's. Ha, Ha. |
| 51. By: VikingArthur on 07-27-2011 19:50:36 Agreed on Guti... but if he could give us .700 OPS I can live with that considering his defensive value. That would mean we just need some production out of LF (could be Carp if Wily gets rolling) and 3b. |
| 52. By: krob4mvp on 07-27-2011 20:41:24 Thank god the Seahawks are grabbing my attention now because this whole Mariner process is a joke. I can't wait till the trade deadline passes and we don't make one move to better this albatross of a team. |
| 53. By: StandinPat on 07-27-2011 21:11:13 "Pat you are acting like it's definitive that the Type A B Free agents rankings and comps are going to go out the window. You have no idea if that is going to happen or not and its wild speculation on your part" Well, that's simply not true at all. 1) My exact words were that with the possibility of it changing, you cannot bank on getting Type B compensation for Gomes. 2) Again, if you honestly think it's "wild speculation" you haven't been paying attention. Both teams and players and unhappy with the current system, which anyone can see is a complete joke. With CBA ending in December, why wouldn't they look to make changes to it? "I'm on the side to think that MLB will not throw the small market teams under the bus by taking it away. I'm pretty confident, in my own judgement and opinion that it will stay." Then you're not understanding the problem. The current system does not help small market teams, doesn't punish big market teams, and is a detriment to a fair number of players in FA. "The type B isn't the point with Gomes" Well you made a pretty big deal about it. But really, what is the point with Gomes? To give up a couple of players(regardless of their value) for two months of a RH half of a DH platoon, in a lost season? What is the gain there? "But it's not just me who thinks the Nats got better value in this deal. The descriptions I pasted in the thread above are not from me, they are from a former baseball GM who was critiquing the trade" And no one said they didn't. Doesn't necessarily mean he was a fit for the Ms and that they somehow gravely missed out on this one. @52 You can't wait for the team to not improve? Sure, that makes sense. |
| 54. By: rjfrik on 07-28-2011 00:58:47 Pat. Let's make a friendly wager. winner donates $10 to Jason's charity. I will wager $10 that the comp system remains the same with type A and B free agents. Will you take the bet? Yes, I would get up garbage in a minute to acquire a RH hitter in his prime, who could be an asset for the club and at the very least bring back a pick in between the second and third round. It's about value and if someone is going to give you value for free you take it. That was my point. No more, no less. |
| 55. By: StandinPat on 07-28-2011 01:41:45 Stays exactly the same? That's more than easy, I'd say $100 to Jason's charity. There is no way they don't change the comp system somehow. Players don't like and some, if not most teams don't like it...why are you so sure it won't change? BTW Ms just picked up Johnny Gomes 2.0 for next to nothing, which is better than getting Johnny Gomes for 2 maybe nothings. |
| 56. By: nighthawk180 on 07-28-2011 02:30:11 rfrik, "He has struggled mightily this year, batting just .211/.336 with 11 home runs and 31 RBIs" You said this in one of your own posts. What does he bring to the table that seattle doesnt already have? We want a no defense light average hitting average power LF/Platoon bat. Why dont we bring back up Peguero. Or better yet let Carp and Halman take a chance to prove they dont suck first. We did just Pena to a minor league deal today also for a grand total of nothing. Just so you know we will have to offer him arbitration to get a type b compensation. Based on THIS YEARS numbers we offer it to him he will most likely accept cause they base it off of what you've done recently and the money currently making. I personally wouldn't want to take that chance. The past couple of weeks yeah have been rough as far as win/loss goes but Carp and Halman have held there own respectively. I'll stick with what we have. Are you worried about Smoak at all? His line is very similar. .223/.319 with 12 HR and 44. I know they dont compare really since Gomes is more of a vet but really we need players that not only help now but in the future. I dont see the Mariners taking a risk simply to maybe get a sandwich 2nd/3rd round pick. Thats the kind of investment that could lead to a Jack Wilson type pay for someone that can be easily replace for the league minimum. Carp, Halman or even Vincent Catricala maybe. |
| 57. By: maqman on 07-28-2011 13:24:14 For what it's worth (not much) I believe there will be some modification at least of the free agent signing compensation part of the CBA. Most likely relating to relief pitcher compensation picks. I doubt they will simply abandon the system, but it is a least a possibility. Wily Mo is mo bettah then Cust, just in pure entertainment value. |
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