Prospect Insider - Hope Springs Eternal

Hope Springs Eternal

By Joe Kaiser

By 02-18-2011

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Spring is here. Pitchers and catchers have reported. And, from what my family tells me, Seattle is more than due for that one week of beautiful, clear, crisp February weather that always seems to tease the Puget Sound region.

Sprinkle in the fact that the brand new Cheney Stadium is set to be unveiled in six weeks -- how crazy cool is that!? -- and there should be a lot to be excited about if you're a baseball fan in and around Seattle.

So why, then, am I struggling to get excited about the 2011 Mariners? It's a question I've been asking myself a lot over the past few weeks and months. I mean, as much as I'm into other sports and other things, baseball is and always will be my No. 1.

I still can't watch Edgar's double without a Kleenex or think about Junior being carried off the field after the season finale in 2009 without every hair on my arms standing up on end.

And with great looking new talents like Justin Smoak, Dustin Ackley and Michael Pineda set to join Felix Hernandez as the faces of the organization for many years to come, there is a lot to be excited about.

So what is it?

Is it losing Dave Niehaus, "the voice of our childhood," as a friend best put it, the man who long-time M's fans associate with the team as much as Griffey or Edgar? That certainly must have something to do with it.

But I think there are bigger, less emotion-centric reasons.

Like the fact that the Mariners haven't been serious contenders since 2002. I mean, if you were born the year the M's last appeared in the post-season, you'd be in third grade right now (maybe even fourth if you are as smart as Churchill)!

Or the fact that all the incredible excitement surrounding the Jack Zduriencik era -- you remember, don't you? -- died in 2010 as quickly as it sprung to life two years ago. Let's face it, last season was tough to take.

In the end, though, I think it's largely one thing.

Somewhere long after Edgar "lined down the left field line for a base hit" and quite a few years after we all fell in love with names like Cameron, Ichiro, Boone and Olerud, the Mariners fell off the map and, it truly pains me to say, Seattle stopped being a baseball town.

(Side note: Man do I miss Dave Niehaus! And Dave, if you are reading this, I hope you skipped the last paragraph.)

I live in the Bay Area now, but I remain closely connected to my roots in the Pacific Northwest. With the emergence of the Seattle Seahawks and Washington Huskies, and the crazy passion for the Seattle Sounders FC, the Mariners aren't even finishing with a medal as far as the Seattle sports scene goes. In other words, they're fourth. In other words, they're last. They have become what the seattle Sonics became -- right before they left town.

When is the last time you heard anyone say, "I'm headin' to the M's game tonight?" Been a while, right? Like over five years? Probably.

Sure, the diehard fans like yourself are still around, but let's be honest with ourselves here; attendance has taken a dive, the excitement and appeal of Ichiro has long worn off and with a lot of bad baseball being played over the last decade fan interest is at the lowest it's been in maybe 15 years.

After '95, grandmas could name the whole starting lineup. Heck, my mom knew practically the whole roster. Now, many casual baseball fans would struggle to name anyone not named Felix. And some of those people would call him Felix Rodriguez.

Last season, I'm thankful to have been able to witness the rise of the 2010 World Series Champions, the San Francisco Giants. In the years I've lived here -- and I've always said this -- San Francisco has been an incredible baseball town. Other than Boston or Chicago (okay, I'll give in ... you, too, New York and St. Louis), I sincerely doubt any other cities could compare. This city is in love with its baseball team, and that's TOTALLY FRICKIN' AWESOME!

The spectacular run through the playoffs took it to another level in these parts. It's almost gotten goofy. But as I looked around this offseason at so many Bay Area residents decked out in orange and black -- people of both genders, all races, young and old -- I couldn't help but think about how badly I want this in Seattle.

Heck, this is what we all want.

We deserve it.

Hope springs Eternal, wrote Alexander Pope. Little did he know during the 18th century that we'd be using his poetic phrase each and every February in relation to our desires as a baseball fan to see our hometown team come out on top the following autumn. But without hope, where would we all be right now? Probably down at a dive bar "wishing" there was hope.

hope-springs-eternal

Comments
The following 33 comment(s) for this article are shown below:

1. By: maqman on 02-18-2011 13:48:03
I see that readers of the Baseball Rumor Mill rate Springer higher than Rendon,2.6/5 to 2.5/5, for what that is worth. He does look interesting and is physically bigger than Rendon and should have more power. Have to wait and see what they do during the college season.

2. By: safecochatter on 02-18-2011 14:43:33
Thinking the young guns will get a much longer look than some people are thinking. as matter of fact the M's #5 starter will make 10 starts before june 1st. and unless Pineda has a very mediocre spring he will be the #5 starter. and if Ackley rakes the ball this spring,he'll be coming north to Safeco too. if he doesn't,your telling the fanbase that winning is not as important as saving money.
Happy for the Giants and their fans. wish the Royals or Pirates would make the playoffs too. it's good for baseball. but mostly i want the m's to bring the best possible team north,as i'm tired of losing too.

3. By: Rick Randall on 02-18-2011 14:53:17
Actually, safecochatter, if they keep Ackley down what they would be telling the fanbase is -- hang on to your hat here -- THE TRUTH!

Sure the average fan would have no idea behind the reasoning, but service time is real, and it is worth considering. Especially when the team has no shot at competing for the division.

4. By: petermag on 02-18-2011 18:06:40
I can't believe you just dropped a '95 pic on us!!! Live in the Now!!!

5. By: petermag on 02-18-2011 18:14:30
The reason you feel this way Joe is because Chuck Armstrong is still the failed team President heading into his 28th season. Look up attendance #'s when Piniella was here versus when he wasn't in Seattle. Or more precisely, look up attendance #'s when Gillick was here vs. when he wasn't here as Positive Pauly pointed out.

On the other side the Mariners have figured out a business plan of how to keep getting people to attend games that don't care about baseball. They do it with bobbleheads, megamoose, and dancing groundscrews. They don't need baseball to sell their product. 2 million is a lot considering how long they've been bad.

The good news is I think the future is bright. If Ackley, Smoak and Pineda show progress this year and if the Mariners have a good draft we could be looking at a pre-86 era team or a pre-95 era team. That's encouraging.

Appreciate the honesty in your post.

6. By: safecochatter on 02-18-2011 18:27:22
service time is real and totally understandable to the average Mariner fan. can't believe you would insult the "average" Mariner fan like that. Never said service time wasn't worth considering...but it's time to turn this franchise around - hang on to your hat here - NOW!

7. By: PositivePaul on 02-18-2011 18:45:30
I finally got a chance to watch the first part of The 10th Inning today and it reminded me just how huge Griffey was, and how amazing it was that he was Seattle's.

What has shown to me how far this city has strayed away from being a baseball city was that there has been a huge subculture of fans here that absolutely loathed Griffey and cursed him for re-joining the team and then cursed him for leaving abruptly.

A different set of people, too, as you mentioned, have grown to under-appreciate Ichiro. He is, after all, about to become the only person in baseball history to have 200+ hits in 11 consecutive seasons. He's broken some pretty ancient records - records that stood for longer than the sacred HR record ever lasted. He's definitely not the Pujolsian slugger that has dominated the past few decades, but rather he's brought a new sense of discipline (in terms of personality not so much plate discipline) and consistency and surgical precision that in a lot of ways brought back pure baseball.

And he's done it in Seattle.

Two of history's greatest players - and we're not even bringing up Felix, who's quickly progressing in his superstardom as well - and they're a part of Seattle's baseball legacy, however short it has been.

That they've both become a bit stale around here is truly telling.

8. By: PositivePaul on 02-18-2011 18:53:16
I mean -- there's a lot of great baseball minds here in Seattle, and Seattle's very much a 'heady' baseball town. But it could really use a heart transplant.

As Peter points out, too, a lot of that is because of the mis-management at the top. Maybe it's the saturation of bobbleheads; maybe it's the ultra-PC nature of Safeco Fields where it's totally fine to sit and chat on your cell phone but you get kicked out for saying "JETER SUCKS!"

It's frustrating. Heck - I'VE become rather apathetic towards the Mariners. I'm just worn out...

9. By: Edman on 02-18-2011 19:02:50
peter, you do realize that Armstrong was here during those good years, you mentioned? He was part of hiring Gillick and Piniella. Putting the blame at his feet is simply scapegoatism. Armstrong reports to the CEO, not the other way around. Lincoln and Ellis are more liable for the M's success, than Armstrong.

10. By: Rick Randall on 02-18-2011 19:58:31
Sorry safeco, but I think you are wrong on the understanding service time point. I am certain that most that care about the team enough to read Prospect Insider or take time to follow minor leaguers and the draft, etc., will understand it, but I'd wager that a good majority of fans of this team -- and most teams -- do not fall under that category.

Also, ignoring the service time issue and bringing Ackley up a few months earlier does not turn the franchise around any quicker. Not by itself. Not with this team.

If they were on the cusp of something and had a legit shot at the division, of course your line of thinking would be correct. But they don't, so it just doesn't make sense...even in spite of how much this organization and this city need a winner.

11. By: Adam B. on 02-18-2011 22:15:05
I think a large part of the problem has been that for every Felix Hernandez and Ichiro Suzuki there has been an overwhelming flood of Jose Vidro, Miguel Batista, Carlos Silva, Eric Byrnes, Rob Johnson and their ilk.
People are sick of watching god-awful baseball players play a painfully ugly brand of baseball.

Even when this team has had successful years as in 2007 and 2009, it felt as though it was almost in spite of the teams true talent levels and that they were simply over-achieving.
Don't get me wrong, I believe that defense is just as fundamentally important to winning baseball as offense (duh.), but as a Seattle resident and life long Mariners fan, I'm growing very tired of attending games where only the top half of any given inning doesn't result in utter futility and frustration.

So my opinion in a nut-shell? Until the M's figure out how to play both sides of an inning with the same eloquence and panache, they will continue to be mired in the background of the greater Seattle sports consciousness.

12. By: dawgncarolina on 02-18-2011 23:01:16
Joe Kaiser! Freaking awesome. Hope all is well man.

13. By: Rudolf on 02-18-2011 23:07:47
Despite the great years Junior gave us in the 90's, I remember how he handcuffed the org. when he bailed for far less money to 'finally go home'. Throughout the spectacular first ten years of his career Griffey was an immature punk. Forgive me for being less than excited when a sagging twilight version of Griffey Jr. rejoined the team when we didn't need him. Forgive me for wanting him the hell out of here when he became a negative influence on the field and in the clubhouse. Forgive me for having mixed feelings about the guy. He'll never be The Kid to me again. That guy went away. That guy is a memory. Today Griffey is what he is, and sadly what he gave to me and this city was tainted by what he took away and how he did it. These things happen.

In no way does this make myself or others like me less than stellar baseball fans in the city of Seattle. That's pure, hot, steaming B---S---, Positive Paul.

14. By: Timberwolf on 02-18-2011 23:34:45
If Griffey was as bad as Rudolf thinks he is, why haven't we heard that from the people who shared a clubhouse and played with him? His teammates have always spoken highly of him, and a class guy like Mike Sweeney, who didn't have a long personal history with him, was fiercely protective of him. Griffey was a key part of the overachieving 2009 team, as well as the 2010 train wreck, which didn't improve after he left. Having Griffey be a part of this franchise and seeing him inducted at Cooperstown in a Mariner hat is important to a lot of people.

15. By: safecochatter on 02-19-2011 02:02:46
scott boras is now Anthony Rendon's official "advisor".
the biggest reason yet for Rendon to fall to the m's.

16. By: nater on 02-19-2011 10:12:17
The main thing, I think, is that we don't have the long history with the M's that those teams do, not long enough to endure these painful slumps.

Re: Griffey, I don't remember much about an immature punk. I remember a guy who was considered the best player of his generation who begged and pleaded with ownership to surround him with enough talent to win something, and year in and year out come up disappointed. A guy who agreed to a lesser salary so the team could keep Buhner. A guy who ultimately accepted a trade after 10 years of having enough of the same ownership that is still disappointing us fans.

17. By: Jason A. Churchill on 02-19-2011 11:39:24
safeco,

The problem is, Pittsburgh has worked with Boras in the past -- Pedro Alvarez -- and while it did not go smoothly, it's history that worked out for both sides.

And the Pirates appear willing to spend.

For me, the biggest issue is, will Rendon even be the top talent come June? I'm not convinced. I'm not saying he's not the top candidate for it, but I'm not completely sold he's the best player as of right this second.

18. By: safecochatter on 02-19-2011 12:12:04
not convinced either Jason,but if that's what the m's want,they may have gained a couple of % points in possibility.
Gerrit Cole pitched a complete game shutout yesterday. granted it was against u of San Francisco. but 11 k's and only one walk is a hell of opening day..

19. By: Jason A. Churchill on 02-19-2011 12:20:46
Not really, since the industry has known for awhile that Rendon was going with Boras.

Cole was just OK, according to scouts in attendance.

20. By: cdiggins@whidbey.com on 02-19-2011 12:52:57
Jason, which position player looks the best to you right now?

Is Rendon the best 3rd baseman now? Seems like the M's either need a 3B or an OFer.

Do you think Springer fits Jack's type of player? Good defense, high OBP and power?

Could you recommend a website to get statistics on these players?

21. By: Jason A. Churchill on 02-19-2011 16:35:19
The season is 1 game in, so there aren't any statistics. The best place to get them is the school's own athletics sites.

22. By: Edman on 02-19-2011 19:26:27
Wow Rudolf, so how well to you know Junior? Close personal friend? He was an immature punk, because you say so? He was such an immature punk, that friends like Buhner, Wilson, etc. still embrace him as a friend?

I'm not sure who's more immature. People who judge him by what they speculate, who go on to post about what they don't know. Or the man himself.

Sorry, but I'll trust people like Dave Niehaus, who dealt with him on a daily basis, rather than distant fan speculation based somewhat on jealousy.

Junior isn't a perfect human being. How many kids are superstars before they're barely 21 years old. And you expect that he's going to view life the same way you do?

You can choose those you wish to admire and hate. But, he will always be one of the greatest Mariners ever. You wish to hold a negative view of him, fine. But, be sure you can live a perfect life before you do.

23. By: on 02-19-2011 21:48:13
Oh Edman, give it a rest. Talk about distant speculation.

I do not doubt that griffey is loved by his family, friends, and former teammates-- at least publicly on the latter. He probably takes them seriously.

As for myself as a fan, spending every summer at the Kingdom (1988-93) as a kid old enough to pay attention, Griffey was virtually inaccessible while many of his teammates were pleasant and available. Most of the time he was just jacking around. He was young, sure, but they guy just screwed around and cackled. He laughed at fans asking for his autograph like it was his personal comedy show. And look at what happened to his career: he never took it seriously and his body fell apart on him. He was just jacking around.

In 2000, I interviewed Tony Ventrella over lunch for an hour and a half. We talked about Junior quite a bit. He told me that Junior never took anyone seriously, especially the media, which was exactly my impression of him as a young fan. Tony, who knew him much better than I did, had the same impression. We also agreed that he took advantage of bad pitching to boost his stats.

When Griffey left the M's, he left like a punk. He punked the city and the M's. I never got the impression he cared all that much about Seattle fans, and i tried to get as close to him as anyone. His words sure never suggested it, and obviously his actions didn't either. When he returned to Safeco a few years back w/ the Reds, the guy was surprised to see how much he was still loved by the city. Why? Probably because he never felt the same way.

It sure looks like he's still the same goofball who never took anyone seriously, only now he's 40. He gets painted as a kid, but he seems more like a grown punk to me. Buhner can praise him all he wants, and if you guys want to base your opinions off of that, feel free ;). If you want to keep it to what strictly happened on the field, more power to you.

As a kid, I rooted for that guy like everyone else. He was my favorite. But the luster wore off over the years. Him returning to our city didn't help any either-- I would have liked him better had I not been forced to watch him wallow these past two years.

Edgar Martinez is my guy from that era. There is a player worth revering. That guy took it seriously. Edgar cared about the fans, especially the kids. The guy with all the talent in the world never did. And if I were a betting man, I'd bet he could care less about everyone's mancrush on him anyway.

24. By: Edman on 02-20-2011 04:43:08
You have got to be kidding me!!! Griffey took advantage of bad pitching to improve his stats? What great hitter doesn't? You think Albert Pujois takes a day off if he thinks he'll over-match the pitcher? That's the whole point of the game.

There is so much that's just plain wrong with your post, I'm not gonna comment any further. You didn't get that autographed baseball and a pat on the butt from Griffey. So, because of that, you carry forward a grudge? I can think of one word, "petty".

25. By: petermag on 02-20-2011 11:23:21
@edman

"Putting the blame at his feet is simply scapegoatism."

I don't want to hijack this board, but let me quickly respond. Chuck has been team president under 3 different CEO's. Argyros, Ellis, Lincoln. He was the team president of the 80s and of the 2000. All decisions go through him and by him. I agree that Ellis and Lincoln should let him go and ultimately they are responsible, but I think it speaks more to his political savvy than ineptness of Argyros, Ellis and Lincoln. Just my opinion. I think you're ignoring a fairly large common denominator in order to maintain your theory. Again, yes Lincoln has failed but the primary thing he has failed in is keeping Armstrong aboard. Armstrong has been good at building the business operations but has meddled and interrupted baseball operations (see relationship with Jr. or usurping General Manager to go yell at coaches in 2008.) There is a science to building an organization and a culture. This is the main study of MBA and CEO's, how to build an organization to produce results. It involves evaluating people based on results, being honest with what they produce, and putting people in positions where they have the best chance to succeed. We can come to the conclusion that Armstrong is a failure at the current setup of the front office and it should change because it contributes to the "losing culture" of this organization that we talk about.

Ok. Enough. Someone feel free to delete this post if I hijacked it. Didn't mean to. But there is solid reasoning between attaching Chuck ARmstrong to the cause of the "losing culture".

26. By: sexymarinersfan on 02-21-2011 02:18:31
cdiggins, I personally got to ask Jack Zduriencik a question at Mariner fanfest about the upcoming draft. He said that they had narrowed it down right now to about 5 candidates. He said "I won't name any names, but it consists of an infielder, an outfielder, and 3 pitchers. I don't think anybody has to guess as to whom they might be." You can also listen to me ask him for yourself on seattlemariners.com of the fanfest interview for Jack Z on the 2nd day, you can hear it for yourself.

Personally I think Springer is absolutely a candidate to being selected with the 2nd pick. I've been following this upcoming draft as closely as I ever have and scouts are saying that this class is the deepest that we've probably had in a decade. Although there won't be any major standouts ala Bryce Harper or Stephen Strasburg, this would be the year that you want as many high picks as possible, and I do believe we own 5 in the top 100. Jack seemed very enthused about that.

I'm also a fan of Cole too. Either way, we're getting an impact prospect with with the 2nd pick, whether it be an arm for the rotation to add with Felix and Pineda, or a corner OF of the future. The future is looking pretty bright.

27. By: Edman on 02-21-2011 12:08:51
petermag, I hope you one day wake from your fantasy. Armstrong was part of both the good years, and bad years. Yet, you refuse to accept that fact. It's not fiction, it's fact. So, if you're going to blame him for failure, they you should acknowledge his successes.

Of course all decisions go through him. Just as the orders from a General work down the ranks. But, you don't blame the Captain for following the orders he's given, unless it's a case of morality. At best, you can only relay your point of view with the hope that you can change a decision. But, you're given orders and guidelines, when in his position. I don't doubt that they seek his advice, but it's pure fantasy to think he's the puppet master.

For the most part, Armstrong's role is administrative. The GM makes a majority of the on-field decisions. Yes, he has to get approval from Armstrong, who has to get approval from Lincoln, who has to get approval from the ownership group. Armstrong DOES NOT act alone. He'd be fired if he did, just as you and I would.

You're a scapegoatist. You seek a single simple answer to a complex problem. Why? Because you need someone to blame. Blame the organization. Many bad decisions were made, especially by Bavasi. But you'd love to believe that Chuck Armstrong was the puppet master directing his every move. Bavasi's decisions were his own. Armstrong was the filter. You have to trust those you place in a decision making role. If you can't, you fire them. Hense, Bavasi isn't here anymore.

Ultimately, the ownership group, Lincoln and Armstrong take responsibility for all decisions, that's just how it works. Armstrong is not Svengali using a form of hypnosis to control those above him. And, let's get back to your rant....Acknowledge that Armstrong was part of the glory years from 1993 to 2001 and stop covering your eyes to the successes. Play fair, or don't play at all.

28. By: petermag on 02-21-2011 16:08:16
@Edman

It's obvious you have no understanding of operating a business or building a successful business. Using your logic the fact that Starbucks profits went downhill when Schultz left and then returned when he came back or the same thing with Steve Jobs leaving Apple in the 80's to return in the late 90's is a concept that means nothing to you.

Chuck is good at attracting talent but fails at retaining talent. Yes he currently works for a bulldog in Lincoln and as a result he doesn't know where he fits. Yes he was there for success, which is a direct result of Piniella being a part of the organization and marching into Chuck and Howard's office and throwing furniture in an attempt to get the players he wanted.

Stick to stuff on the field Edman. You sound like a fool when you navigate into the business side but you bring some solid stuff to the table regarding baseball stuff. Your consistent contrarian point of view does help balance stuff out on this board but this is an area where you're unqualified.

29. By: Edman on 02-21-2011 16:59:09
Holy crap, petermag, how the hell do you know what Chuck, Howard, Piniella or anyone else inside the organization felt? You're "specultating". Try taking speculation to a court of law, and see how well it stands up.

Don't talk to me about what i "know", when you're on a fishing trip using conjecture as your lure.

How do you know what I know? What is your basis for baseball business management? Your sources for their personal actions.

Just fess up that you're "guessing" based on your personal bias, and let's call it good. But don't try to sell it to me or anyone else, that it's some sort of historical fact.

30. By: Chris Crawford on 02-21-2011 18:30:25
Play nice guys, please.

31. By: rjfrik on 02-21-2011 19:56:01
Geez. Edman's blowing his top again.

Time to start another thread guys so this one can be put to bed.

32. By: Edman on 02-21-2011 20:46:22
I didn't blow my top. But I do believe in fairness and accuracy.

A statement like "....works for a bulldog in Lincoln and as a result he doesn't know where he fits" beckons one to ask how he knows what pressures Chuck is under.

Then, "Yes he was there for success, which is a direct result of Piniella being a part of the organization and marching into Chuck and Howard's office and throwing furniture in an attempt to get the players he wanted." Wouldn't Chuck have been responsible for hiring Piniella?

Add to it "You sound like a fool when you navigate into the business side...." If he's going to talk about the business of baseball, then he should present his credentials, to justify how he knows exactly how the business of baseball works.

I'm done with this. But I didn't blow up. I got passionate, because it bothers me when people speak a-matter-of-factly about something none of use really know.

I don't care if Chuck, Howie or anyone else, sans Z and Engle, are given the boot. There is plenty of blame to go around. But the concept that replacing Armstrong would fix all ills, is the stuff of Science Fiction.

33. By: DKulich44 on 02-21-2011 21:31:55
Honestly guys, the Mariners record has to do with one thing: On field performance and talent.

Trying to blame Chuck and Howard, the ballpark atmosphere, or even the front office (in last year's case) is the worst way to look at this. Last year's team severely underperformed as a group... it happens. Teams before that just were constructed poorly.

The reason the Mariners were good in the early 2000s and mid 1990s were that the players on the field were good. Gillick was an excellent talent evaluator at the Major League level and put together very good teams. Bavasi was not, and the team was stuck with overpaid and under-performing players. Saying that Pinella was the main reason this team won is just as innacurate. He didn't help the situation in Tampa Bay, and didn't help the situation in Chicago. If he were managing in 2008 the Mariners still would have lost around the same amount of games.

Until the Mariners can put together a solid group of players (which is very possible in the near future with the current core of young players) this team will continue to struggle regardless of who is making business decisions.

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