| By Jason A. Churchill |  | By 01-15-2012 |
While I have no inside information on the subject, there have been hints that the Seattle Mariners are still in on Prince Fielder -- at least from the club's standpoint. Whether or not Fielder would consider signing with the M's is another story.
I guess that is both good and bad, but here's more positive news: GM Jack Zduriencik is not waiting around and dreaming on Fielder.
The Mariners aren't talking, that is important to note, but there are indications that the club also has a "we aren't adding Fielder" gear, and that mode could be sending them in one or more directions to add talent.
Since adding Jesus Montero and with Justin Smoak and Mike Carp both on the roster, the top offensive free agents left -- after Fielder -- the likes of Carlos Pena, Johnny Damon, Vladimir Guerrero and Derek Lee -- don't fit, and the trade market appears as dry as a desert -- which means more upgrades to the offense have to come at third base and/or the outfield.
There's still a chance that a player such as Seth Smith is of interest to Seattle, and if they want a lefty with a better defensive profile to platoon in left field, Ryan Spilborghs is a free agent, too.
Ryan Ludwick would have to come extremely cheap to be any kind of an option -- considering cost, defense and base running, isn't Casper Wells just as good or better than Ludwick? -- and Xavier Nady and Conor Jackson are better suited for first base or bench duties.
Carlos Guillen is no longer an ideal fit unless the M's bring him in to play some third base -- which isn't far fetched at all, but cost is a major factor there, especially since Guillen is 36 and injury prone.
Rick Ankiel might be an interesting addition to the outfield mix, too. He can spell Gutierrez in center, bats left-handed and has some power. Cody Ross is likely far too pricey for the Mariners, since any mid-level right-handed bat will have to share time in left with Carp.
Kosuke Fukudome might be an OK addition, but Carp's presence renders the Japanese import unnecessary.
The Mariners, it seems to me -- while not having bowed out or given up in Fielder -- have expanded their attempts to add offensive players to their organization. It also seems those players will have to come via trade.
Could the Dodgers consider dealing Andre Ethier? Is Ethier's pending free agency and 2012 salary -- which is likely to rise from $11 million last season into the $13-14 million range barring a multi-year solution -- far too high? Probably.
Could Marlon Byrd or Allen Craig be of interest to the M's? We know the Cubs are at least open to talking about Byrd. The Cardinals added Carlos Beltran to an outfield that already consists of Matt Holliday and John Jay.
Whichever way the M's turn, I get the vibe it's on the down low, which means it's a player to which we have yet to hear them linked. The Montero deal wasn't a shocker, he's a player they nearly dealt for in 2010. The next big move may come as quite the surprise, however, and if Fielder isn't part of the equation, there's money available for other ventures. Maybe more than one.
m\'s-not-waiting-around-for-prince
Comments
The following 52 comment(s) for this article are shown below:
| 1. By: johnburkland on 01-15-2012 18:28:27 what about Dave's Cameron's dream of getting Will Venable to platoon in LF? What would the Padres want for him? Are you hearing anything about us getting in on Jackson or Oswalt now that the rotation could use an upgrade? |
| 2. By: KingFelix on 01-15-2012 18:40:37 I would be ok with signing Oswalt to a one year deal at 10M. Our payroll would be around 90M and this would allow us to wait on Hultzen and Paxton until July. If we are in the hunt at the deadline we keep him, if not we can trade him and our rotation should be set for 2013 with Felix, Hultzen, Noesi, Paxton and Beaven with a ton of cash to lock up our young core and add a big bat for RF. |
| 3. By: rjfrik on 01-15-2012 18:49:54 I think the rotation might be addressed. Oswalt wouldn't be a bad addition. Inflate his value by pitching in Safeco and then possibly deal him at the deadline if we are out of it, ala Washburn, Fister and Bedard. Makes sense. By July Hultzen and/or Paxton could/should be ready to fill in for the back half of the year. I think if a position player is acquired, as Jason said, it's probably someone we haven't thought about and I don't think it's going to be a Free Agent. Jason can't wait for the draft topic. Can't wait to hear what you have to say about Buxton and Zunino. |
| 4. By: jgstecker on 01-15-2012 19:54:28 The key to the roster is the logjam at C. Can they carry Olivo, Jaso, and Montero? If they do, which seems likely, they'll need some versatility on the bench. Are they comfortable with one backup infielder? If so, that gives Rodriguez a big edge over Kawasaki based on his versatility. If not, who do they bring in? And what about OF? If Wells is in LF is Carp your only backup outfielder? Honestly, if Jaso, Olivo, and Montero are all still around, keeping Chone Figgins makes a ton of sense. You get a caddy for Seager and defensive depth in the outfield. |
| 5. By: Gibbo on 01-15-2012 20:32:18 It's an Interesting roster as it stands now. On one hand they could easily go into the season with it as it stands now and look to trade away Olivio and Vargas when anoth team needs them. I think with the questions marks around Montero at C, Olivio probably stays with us short term at least. Also Vargas as the only leftie in the rotation probably stays until Hultzen is ready. Then on the other hand if they believe Montero is good for catching 60 games and Hultzen is ready now, then Vargas and Olivio could easily go sooner. I would still prefer them add an upgrade at 3B, I actually see a guy like Martin Prado a good fit now, takes Figgins spot and he can play 3B a RH'er to compliment Seager and covers LF too. Although the Braves were rumored to want a bit too much for him. |
| 6. By: marinerforever on 01-15-2012 21:36:21 absoultley no need to address thrid base let seager take a go at it you also have truinfel and liddi and then you have future at thrid in fransico martinez and you have your utilty outfielder in casper wells |
| 7. By: pwhit44 on 01-15-2012 22:02:44 I think "absolutely no need to address 3B" is kind of a stretch. Martinez, I would think, is at least a couple of years out. If you can do better than Seager and Liddi, which shouldn't be that hard, you absolutely do it. Sandoval, or a player like him (two or three years left before free agency) would be a great idea, especially if they plan on contending in 2013 or 2014. That isn't to say Sandoval is available. But a hitter like that, in his contract situation... No need to address a position that is a pretty big hole seems funny-ish. |
| 8. By: marinersfan424 on 01-15-2012 22:42:13 I like the Allen Craig idea - only 27, under team control for 5 more years. He did play 2 games at 3B last year (I know that's LaRussa's MO is to play guys everywhere) but if there's any chance a guy like that could stick at 3B, then could be moved to the OF if someone like F. Martinez pans out then I like the move, but it would totally depend on what it would take to get him. I highly doubt STL would give him to us for nothing - maybe a package around Saunders and a pitching prospect like Ramirez. Hard to tell if he'll be a 150 OPS+ guy coming to the AL and only doing over about 450 PA last year, but he has a .924 OPS over 900 AAA PA's - would be a nice fit in the 6-hole behind Ackley/Montero/Smoak. |
| 9. By: marinersfan424 on 01-15-2012 22:45:21 Sorry - only 219 PAs last year. Thought he played way more than that. |
| 10. By: Alpha Blu on 01-15-2012 23:22:42 I think it would take a lot more than Saunders + to fetch Allen Craig. If I were another team I don't think I'd find much value in Saunders at all. Sure, he's a good defensive OF, but defensive OFs who can't hit grow on trees. |
| 11. By: Marlin Man on 01-15-2012 23:51:51 Go ahead and jump my following point, I expect it; However we must give Seager the longer shot he has earned. Kid might surprise us, if he get a couple solid months of work-- either way, I would guiess by the deadline we would know if someone else needs him for infield, OR- which I hope for-- we are happy with what he has done, and give him his first fulll year to see what he does with it! M.M. |
| 12. By: Jerry on 01-16-2012 00:17:13 I'm looking forward to hearing the official word from Jack and Wedge about this move. Mainly, I'm looking forward to hearing their thoughts about how Montero will fit on the club. I'm not so sure that Montero as a DH/1B is a foregone conclusion. If somehow he could stick at C, that would make this addition a whole lot more interesting. Think about Ackley. Before they drafted him, everyone was arguing about whether he would play CF, or just stay at 1B. But the M's saw something, took a risk, and moved him to 2B, and it has paid HUGE dividends. The M's obviously like Montero a lot. And they obviously don't view Smoak and him as an either/or proposition. I'm holding out hope that they think a lot of scouts are wrong about Montero, and that he can stick at C. The faced the same criticisms with Ackley and his shift to 2B. Or maybe, like Ackley, they will try something crazy. Montero at 3B??? I'm mostly joking here, but the point is, I'm holding out hope that Montero isn't our DH in 2012. |
| 13. By: Jason A. Churchill on 01-16-2012 00:43:57 Jerry, What Montero is and will be, which is a first baseman and/or DH, and what I and others have written about it since the trade Friday, means very little to nothing when it comes to what the Mariners plan for Montero in 2012. There is almost zero chance, IMO, that Montero doesn't catch at least a little bit this coming season. The one thing is for sure, he'll get 600 plate appearances. |
| 14. By: rocketdawg31 on 01-16-2012 00:54:54 Go ahead and jump my following point, I expect it; However we must give Seager the longer shot he has earned. Kid might surprise us, if he get a couple solid months of work-- either way, I would guiess by the deadline we would know if someone else needs him for infield, OR- which I hope for-- we are happy with what he has done, and give him his first fulll year to see what he does with it! Actually, no jumping...I'm with you on this one, Marlin Man. I saw an awful lot of Seager at-bats last year, and I'll go out on a limb and say this here: I think this kid has more than what we've seen. And I certainly think he's done enough to warrant the full shot, provided he follows up with a strong Spring Training. He's got a ballplayer mentality, no question with me there. But I saw him making adjustments, the more he played in the bigs. There was a stretch there in September (I think?) where he simply couldn't be gotten out, going like 15-for-25 or something. And I'm sure it wasn't entirely a hot streak. It was partially a kid who was really figuring things out in the big leagues. He's nothing close to a perfect ballplayer, mind you. He needs to solve left-handed pitching, something fierce. He's not the best runner. And it could well be that on a really good team, Kyle Seager makes a very good utility infielder/lefty bat and nothing more. But he doesn't have to be a superstar to be really valuable to us. While I think he could hit 15 taters in a year, eventually...He doesn't have to jack 20 to be a valid starter at third. I'm certain he can handle the glove there, also (as well as second and short). If he solves lefty pitching and gets 500 ABs, I think this could be a consistent .280 hitter, eventually. |
| 15. By: Ungnome on 01-16-2012 01:04:20 Defensive outfielders who can't hit and have no more options are worth even less. Francisco Martinez should reach AAA in 2012 meaning there is a chance he could be starting in the majors in 2013. I could be wrong but wasn't Martinez considered the big part of the Fister deal? That means something. Liddi has contact issues but the power is legit and he can play the position well enough. Seager has hit well at every level and even showed a league average bat in the majors. I am not sure why everyone is writing him off so quickly. The M's have options at 3B that wont be bettered by a league average bat. Ackley was athletic enough to be considered in CF, Montero is athletic enough to be considered a 1B. Big difference. Also, Ackley had time in the minors to figure out 2B, Montero is not going to AAA. |
| 16. By: valencia on 01-16-2012 01:32:58 Wil Myers is now a RF after 75 games. Mike Carp "learnt" to play LF in how many games? If Montero can't stick at C, we will find a position for him that's not just 1B/DH, probably in the OF. If Seager could become Dustin Pedroia-lite (15-20 HR guy with good plate discipline) then he'll make an amazing 3B. His ceiling is a lot higher than just mere utility. Can he hit his ceiling though, is the question. Martinez has been good, but not great in the minors. I don't think he's ready until 2014 really. And I still think Catricala could play at 3B - his MiLB Fld% is the same as Martinez. Fld% isn't a great way to measure defense, but it's something. |
| 17. By: Edman on 01-16-2012 03:28:39 I think Seager stays at third. That said, I wouldn't be opposed to trying to sign Wilson Betemit or Carlos Guillen to spell him against lefthanded hitters, and possibly back up the infield. They're not a great middle infielders, but could handle it in an emergency. They shouldn't break the bank. That would allow Liddi to get more time in Tacoma for a last season call-up. There are still some moves to be made. Signing Fielder? Honestly, I don't really care anymore. I'm sick of it. If they do, they do. If Washington is more attractive to him, let him go. I think Seattle is going to be something special in a couple years, the same way that Texas has become. Texas is spending themselves a financial hole. Right now, their credit card hasn't reached it's limit. But, if they keep buying diamonds and furs, it will. And, by 2015, the M's will have a new TV deal, with a cost controlled team of talented young kids. They'll be able to spend when while teams like Texas and Anaheim are paying for their current spending. Because of changing revenue streams, baseball will always be that way. The common sense that Jack brings the Mariners is the team needs to be somewhat self-sustaining to at least allow you not to fall into a deep hole. |
| 18. By: docsmith on 01-16-2012 06:07:40 I agree with the sentiment that it should be ok to see what Seager can do at 3rd, Wells/Carp/Saunders/etc can do at LF and if Guti can come back. But, it doesn't hurt to look. And if we see someone that will provide competition at any of those positions or is outright better, bring 'em in. Any of the above could also be included in a package to bring someone back. Anything to continue to improve the team. I am getting excited by Montero. Of course, I am envisioning him absolutely mashing the ball. I'd also rather see him as a DH if he is going to be a defensive liability in the field. Nothing wrong with have a masher at DH. But I bet we see him at C/1B/DH. Actually, I am excited in that I expect by the end of the year we'll have "solved" 1b between Smoak/Carp/Montero. Hopefully one of them will show they are our 1B of the future. But it is great to have depth at the position. |
| 19. By: hoiland on 01-16-2012 11:06:29 It will be interesting to see how Wedge manages Wells/Carp/Smoak/Montero. Carp last year took off when he was told he would play every day. Once he could settle in and not worry about playing time, he was successful. Smoak was solid last year before his thumb injury. After his injury, believe it was June 25th, it took him almost 3 months before he hit a HR. I fully expect him to bounce back and improve on his 260/363/480 line prior to the injury. Against LHP, I can see a lineup with Wells in LF, Smoak 1B, Carp DH, Montero C. However, this will all get screwed up if Montero falls flat on his face at C like everyone says he will. Who will be put on the bench between Smoak/Carp? Both have better splits between LHP. Hopefully these young guys aren't effected too much mentally by all the moving around they will be doing next year. |
| 20. By: ripperlv on 01-16-2012 11:57:57 It's hard to believe Figgins is still here. He may well be the starting 3B with Seager doing more of a super utility. If Seager is the 3B, he'll bring (hopefully) above average OBP with little power. Sorta like Figgins when he was playing well, only without the speed. Liddi had a cup of coffee, but is he really ready? His upside appears to be decent power, his downside is a high strike out rate. Don't know if he'll get much of a chance in spring training unless Figgins is gone. As JAC stated: upgrades to the offense have to come at third base and/or the outfield. I see the depth chart as: Figgins Seager Liddi Depth charts move, unless Figgins has a really good spring, Seager will probably pass him. Neither guy would be on my draft list. |
| 21. By: DMac33 on 01-16-2012 12:28:05 The reality is that this isn't a club that is going to be contending next year ... .500 would be a great target for the club. If I'm lookng at this team next year, I'm looking at the following as key objectives to the year (in no particular order): 1) Identifying what you really have with Mike Carp and Casper Wells. With respect to Carp, confirming that his second half run last season was legit and whether or not he can play an adequate enough OF for him to not be a liability in the field. It's one thing if you are a liability in the field when you are hitting .320/40/130 and another thing if you are a .290/20/95 kind of a guy. With respect to Wells, getting a good handle not only on what you have with him positionally defensively, but also his ceiling as a hitter. He needs to get at least 500 plate appearances this year to flush that out. 2) Justin Smoak needs to get the playing time to be able to prove whether or not he can or cannot hit at a high enough level to be part of the picture going forward on this team when they become a winner. He needs to understand that he doesn't need to carry the weight of the team on his shoulders. But what he needs to do is to show a plan at the plate, to understand the situation, and realize that playing at Safeco means that you can't think about hitting for power and instead you just have to worry about hitting it hard. I think he's got the ability to be a productive MLB player ... but he's got to show it this season. 3) While on one hand it is important to prove that Jesus Montero can catch, it's also important to have a Plan B option available that can handle the catching duties. Simply put, the kid can rake. And for someone that can rake like he can, I disagree with the assessment that he's more valuable to your team as a catcher. In certain situations, I agree that that's the case. But over the long haul, the cost of playing catcher is going to start taking away his greatest asset - and that's a mistake. In my opinion, it's much, much harder for bigger catchers to maintain their health long-term (see Joe Mauer). Montero is a big kid ... and it's going to cause him knee/leg problems in time if he catches 140 games a year. The catchers that are the most durable are shorter catchers who don't put quite the strain on their knees/legs. His bat is too valuable to waste. He needs to be given the opportunity to learn how to play 1B and DH while given 30-50 games a year behind the plate. If we ever do find ourselves lucky enough to be in a WS, wouldn't it be a nice little feather in the cap to know that Montero has enough experience working with the pitchers that when playing in a NL park he can put the gear on and your lineup stays strong? 4) Give Cole Seager 500 ABs and allow him to figure out how to hit left handed pitching. He seems like a pretty smart kid to me that will make the necessary adjustments. Give him the opportunity to sink or swim. 5) Stretch Blake Beaven out to close to 200 innings this year. His weaknesses as a pitcher are somewhat mitigated by Safeco. He's got sound ability and he's shown to be capable of pitching at the MLB level. His biggest obstacles at this point are further refinement of his pitches/location and most likely a little bit of focus, etc. Allow him to continue to experience the successes and lumps that are necessary for young pitchers. 6) For those that aren't part of the long-term solution, don't hesitate to turn those assets into assets that might be part of the solution. I'm talking specifically about players like Jason Vargas, etc. |
| 22. By: KingFelix on 01-16-2012 13:12:23 Dmac, I am starting to agree with your look at 2012. The goal should be to see what we have going into 2013. First, maybe we should pass on the Montero as a catcher and see if he can play first a few days a week and DH. This would allow Smoak and Montero to have a break each week from the field and hopefully hit well as our # 4 and #5 MOTO bats. Second, see what the rest of the kids can do, i.e. maybe a platoon of Liddi/Seager at 3B and Carp/Wells at LF with Wells spelling Ichiro in RF as well. Third, if we are not going to spend anymore money. I show us around 80M for 2012 without anymore additions, move Figgins for a bad contract in 2012 and clear up the payroll hit so we will have a ton of cash in 2013 with Ichiro, Figgins and Olivo gone and be able to start to lock up our younger players and sign a big bat to play RF and maybe a stud C like Molina or Montero from AZ. Fourth, try to sign Felix to a three year extension on his current deal so we have him for the next six years as we build our team. |
| 23. By: maqman on 01-16-2012 14:09:51 The Montero placement will work itself out eventually. I think he's too big to stay at C for too long, even if he's passable defensively. We have him for 6 years cheap, we need to keep him in the games to bat. Seager is better than some are giving him credit for, he came up through the minors pretty fast. His and Ackley's college coach thinks he's near as good as Ack. We need to find out if that is true. I get that most are discounting Moore as having a future with the team. That might be and it might not. |
| 24. By: nap5159 on 01-16-2012 14:29:43 I think Jack Z needs to start looking into what we can get in a trade for Guti. At his best, Guti was a .280 hitter with 15 homeruns or so who played spectacular defense. But seeing as how much of a problem our offense has been, I think we should look into seeing if we can trade him for an arm, and put Wells in center with Carp in left. Wells isn't bad defensively, and can definitely play an adequate centerfield. If we do that, then we still have much more room to work with in the 1B/DH area. We would be able to put out a lineup that looks something like this every day... Ichiro--RF Seager--3B Ackley--2B Montero--DH Smoak--1B Carp--LF Wells--CF Jaso/Olivo--C Ryan--SS Personally, I think that could be a very solid lineup. And yes, I am advocating for Kyle Seager. He showed at the end of last season that he can hit, and it sure seems like he would be the perfect number 2 hitter for our team. Then if you wanna look even further into the future, we could be looking at a lineup that looks something along the lines of... Trayvon Robinson Kyle Seager Dustin Ackley Jesus Montero Justin Smoak Mike Carp Casper Wells Nick Franklin And whoever our catcher ends up being (Adam Moore?) I know that's a look at a potential lineup that's about 2 seasons away, but I would not protest to it at all. Obviously this would be in a perfect world, where everyone continues to develop the way we think they will, but I don't think it's too farfetched. But for any of this to happen, I think we really need to take this season to find out what we have with our players. Give as many of our young guys opportunities as we can. That said, if we're in contention somehow, obviously put the focus on that. And then there's the whole deal about what's going to happen with Felix, but that's a bridge we'll hopefully never have to deal with, because hopefully we can re-sign him |
| 25. By: rotoenquire on 01-16-2012 15:29:04 Now that the trade for Seth Smith talk can stop. C. Guillen to split time and play 3B would be a cheap and smart move. @24 Trading Guity now would be a bad move. If he has a solid bounce back year through the 1st half of the season then you can start looking at trading him. To do it now you not get anything. |
| 26. By: pwhit44 on 01-16-2012 15:29:57 nap5159, Dude. If Guti really hits .280 with 15-20 dingers and spectacular center field defense... You just described one of the most valuable assets in baseball. On a reasonable contract. Why on earth would you trade that? That's not to say you don't trade him at all. But with his value as low as it is, and if you believe he can do that (which you obviously do), that seems totally counterproductive. If Guti recovers to what he was, or better, he becomes one of the most important pieces on the team. |
| 27. By: rocketdawg31 on 01-16-2012 15:33:42 Post #24: I think Jack Z needs to start looking into what we can get in a trade for Guti. At his best, Guti was a .280 hitter with 15 homeruns or so who played spectacular defense. Disagree. I think it's fundamentally bad baseball business to sell a player 40 cents on the dollar (and that's what you'd be doing in trading Gutierrez right now) when he's young enough to possibly still be a valuable piece of YOUR club. Sure, he's another question mark- when it seems like we have way more of those than what we'd really like. But risk/reward ratio is in our favor by running him out there in a season when we're not truly expecting a division title. |
| 28. By: rocketdawg31 on 01-16-2012 15:37:39 I think Carlos Guillen makes a world of sense for us now. I'm disappointed the A's got Smith, though. I say OF Will Venable in a trade (Dave Cameron recommended it, I looked into the guy and agree he's be a fit) with the Friars and sign Guillen. And boom. Your 2012 Mariners mostly complete. |
| 29. By: pwhit44 on 01-16-2012 15:48:55 This is a question not an argument... How much better really is Will Venable left field than a Carp-Wells left field? I'd assume he's better in the field than Carp, but he's also close to arbitration, and both Carp and Wells are a ways away. I understand the reasoning, but not the practicality of it. Trading for Venable would cost player(s?), and at least from from my view, not a huge gain in left field. I suppose if you think he's a ton better than Carp, a swap of those two makes sense. But if he is, then San Diego wouldn't do that in the first place. Just wondering... |
| 30. By: pwhit44 on 01-16-2012 15:54:01 rocketdawg, I agree on Carlos Guillen. If he can play a good third base (not sure about that anymore) and doesn't cost a whole lot, I'd love to have him. Nice switch-hitter and veteran presence. That and I just love and miss the guy. He's not a great player anymore, but when he was traded he was probably the best position player on the Mariners. One of my worst moments as a Mariner fan. |
| 31. By: Edman on 01-16-2012 16:14:41 I agree with the questions about Venable. Why trade for someone who's not a significant upgrade for what you already have? Between Carp, Wells, Robinson, Saunders (longshot, but who knows?), and Ford you should be able to find someone nearly as good. I would rather see some homespun talent, unless you can get a better player than Venable. |
| 32. By: rocketdawg31 on 01-16-2012 17:33:39 I suppose if you think he's a ton better than Carp, a swap of those two makes sense. But if he is, then San Diego wouldn't do that in the first place. Just wondering... In terms of left field value, you're right, Pwhit44. Venable would NOT be a huge gain over Carp. But we all know Carp is a LF in name only, a defensive nightmare waiting to happen who will get exposed time and again over the course of a season. What I had in mind actually wasn't "swap with the Padres for Carp". Carp would actually make their current sitch worse. You see, when they traded for Carlos Quentin, the Padres created a quagmire of left fielders for themselves- they have 5 who are gonna be duking it out for ABs as it stands right now. Venable, Kyle Blanks, Quentin, Jesus Guzman and Chris Denorfia. Now, Blnaks might just have a ticket to AAA no matter what, and typically we all know a way to get around that is just stick the hot bat at first base...but they also acquired Yonder Alonso from the Reds, and he's gonna get the lion's shared of ABs there in 2012. This leaves them with a position-player logjam at 2 spots and they still need pitching (like Erasmo Ramirez or a Stephen Pryor). I agree with the questions about Venable. Why trade for someone who's not a significant upgrade for what you already have? Between Carp, Wells, Robinson, Saunders (longshot, but who knows?), and Ford you should be able to find someone nearly as good. If we were talking strictly left field platoon, I'd totally agree. But I'm not. A primary reason I would want Venable in the fold is he could spell Gutierrez in center if he needed it, or slide over there full-time if Guti simply can't handle the rigors of a major league season physically anymore. Because if Guti fails in center, our other options are just way less than ideal. Trayvon Robinson probably has the SPEED to be a centerfielder, but to me his arm only really plays in left. Plus with the bat, he probably needs at least 400 AAA at-bats and a definite plan against left-handers. Michael Saunders is a legit guy to patrol center, we all know that he could play well defensively anywhere in the outfield...but he's gonna have to hit enough to even have a job doing that. And frankly, he may already be out of chances here. Add the fact that Casper Wells isn't a classic centerfielder, best if in either right or left....and there just doesn't seem to be a lot of fallback options in-house for us in centerfield. A Will Venable makes sense for us if the worst-case scenario hits. And if it doesn't, I'd prefer him to be our fourth OF over Saunders and a couple kids who would be rushed if they had a ML-job in 2012. |
| 33. By: pwhit44 on 01-16-2012 19:13:12 ... |
| 34. By: rotoenquire on 01-16-2012 19:39:28 @28 Venable? Cameron has a decent web site an dcan spout of some numbers. But, Venable? No thank you, we have that kinda talent already here. Cameron used to suggest such trades when he was in the same fantasy baseball league as me. Why maybe he never won it. Someone that keeps getting lost in all this is Chiang. I have a feeling about this kid. He could end up being our Left Fielder next season. Guy had 44 Doubles and 18 Home Runs last year. When judging minor leaguer's for power a bigger number too look at is Doubles and not the HR output. Chiang making this roster would change a lot and could open trade possibilities. Ichiro RF Ackley 2B Chiang LF Montero DH Smoak 1B Guity CF Seagar 3B Olivo C Ryan SS Putting Wells as your #4 OF, Kawasaki Util, Jaso C, Carp 1B/OF/DH, C. Figgins 3B/2B. If Figgins can be dealt and C. Guillen signed. You would platoon Seagar and Guillen at 3rd, if the M's sign Guillen. The next priority is to get Guillen and dump even if you have to eat a lot of his contract trade Figgins. |
| 35. By: rocketdawg31 on 01-16-2012 20:03:23 The next priority is to get Guillen and dump/trade- even if you have to eat a lot of his contract- Figgins. Please believe me when I say that seeing Chone Figgins barely wear some other jersey should be on the short wishlist of every single Mariners fan. I'd bet good money he's done as a Mariner, even if he goes to Spring Training with us at first. |
| 36. By: Gibbo on 01-16-2012 21:49:11 You trade for Venable because he is better than what we have - last year we played Saunders, Peguro, Robinson, Halman and none of them were close to ready. So if we stick with what we have then need to give Guti or Wells a break, then who would cover OF then? Yeah Chiang and Robinson may be options but not yet. Build up depth in the OF and then deal it away. It may not be a massive upgrade, but it’s an incremental upgrade and that’s what Z has done every step of the way and we need to keep doing that. I really don’t want to go into the season relying on anyone in our AAA club to help in the OF. |
| 37. By: rotoenquire on 01-16-2012 22:18:38 You would be trading for Venable to be your 5th OF. Ichiro, Wells, Carp, Guity are your 4. And Venable is NOT any better than any of those not even buy a little.. He is a .250 batter in the NL you bring him to the adult league and he will get stomped. He is 29 2 years past the magic 27 year old best year players usually have. He may not even be good enough to start in S.D. OF, Yikes!!... Bring me Jerry Sands, Eric Young Jr., Allen Craig or J.D. Martinez they would be upgrades worth trading for.. |
| 38. By: rotoenquire on 01-16-2012 22:20:43 The M's actually tried to get E. Young Jr. from Col. at the winter meetings but could not get a deal done. That tells me that Ichiro may not be around after this season. |
| 39. By: rocketdawg31 on 01-17-2012 00:20:49 You would be trading for Venable to be your 5th OF. Ichiro, Wells, Carp, Guity are your 4. And Venable is NOT any better than any of those not even buy a little.. He is a .250 batter in the NL you bring him to the adult league and he will get stomped. He is 29 2 years past the magic 27 year old best year players usually have. He may not even be good enough to start in S.D. OF, Yikes!!... Bring me Jerry Sands, Eric Young Jr., Allen Craig or J.D. Martinez they would be upgrades worth trading for.. Hmmm. In order: 4th outfielder, with a lot of use. The more Capr doesn't see the OF, the better. How he has done in the NL has to be tempered by smaller sample sizes- he hasn't had many full-fledged seasons (500-600 ABs) for us to amass data on him. There ARE definitely better/more talented players than Venable...and if you can find one that fits, wouldn't cost a ton to trade for? I'm all for it. Craig I could see. I don't know if Sands is better than Venable or Craig and I don't know the first thing about J.D. Martinez. But your point about Venable being 29, 2 years removed from the magical "27 year" is really invalid as a constant fact that can be relied on. Many players may conform to that, sure. Not all do, though. Edgar Martinez didn't have HIS best year at age 27. Or Paul Molitor. Or Barry Bonds. The M's actually tried to get E. Young Jr. from Col. at the winter meetings but could not get a deal done. That tells me that Ichiro may not be around after this season. Ummmm...Roto, I don't think the possible acquisition of Eric Young, Jr. has anything to do with Ichiro, really. Young is a fourth OF on a good team, a platoon guy on a so-so one. "See ya, Ichiro. We got Eric Young, Jr. so we're all good here. Thanks for the grins, don't forget to write..." Ichiro not being a Mariner in 2013 is most certainly a real possibility. I can't imagining ponying up $18 million or so if he wants to stay on a little longer and thinks he can. I really firmly believe he'll retire if he continues to show signs of decline that he can't reverse...3,000 MLB hits be damned. To a Japanese mind, I think it'd be a matter of respect for himself and respect for the game. But Eric Young, Jr. or a comparable talent to him would NOT preclude Ichiro from "being around". |
| 40. By: rocketdawg31 on 01-17-2012 00:48:51 Oh, and before I forget.... @28 Venable? Cameron has a decent web site an dcan spout of some numbers. But, Venable? No thank you, we have that kinda talent already here. Cameron used to suggest such trades when he was in the same fantasy baseball league as me. Why maybe he never won it. Dave Cameron has no shortage of either arrogance or good ideas. He's good and he knows he's good. But in all fairness, he doesn't need fantasy baseball league titles to say he's good. BBWAA credentials are enough testament there, I would say. As far as Venable goes...I wouldn't want to acquire him because I think he's going to knock the world on its butt and set it on fire for us, singing "Welcome To The Jungle"...he's a guy you can count on to contribute NOW what he is ultimately capable of on a major-league roster, and an undervalued asset currently. It's not about talent, so to speak. We have kids who are considerably more talented than Venable waiting in the wings. But none are ready ultimately for Opening Day 2012 and many of those are not ready for even auditions....yet. Venable is a worthy patch on the 2012 sails. That's what I would want him for. |
| 41. By: Edman on 01-17-2012 02:05:23 If you can't do better than Venable, then don't move bodies in a trade, unless it's balanced toward Seattle. I'd rather give more time to Carp, Wells and evaluate them for the future, than to try and win a couple more games this year. And Carp is not a disaster waiting to happen, that's simply being overly dramatic. He's not a great outfielder, but with some time in the position, there's no reason he can't be an average defender. I'll take average defender with a bat for $1000, Alex. |
| 42. By: Shawnuel on 01-17-2012 02:10:07 I'm also on the Venable bandwagon. I think the acquisition of Montero makes it less likely to happen as his DH AB's will force Carp into more LF time. I think Venable in a platoon with Wells is a pretty darned good full time OF and, as rocketdawg31 mentions, he is more than capable of handling CF if Guti has more health issues. |
| 43. By: rocketdawg31 on 01-17-2012 04:10:39 #41- If you can't do better than Venable, then don't move bodies in a trade, unless it's balanced toward Seattle. Certainly balance for the org would be something strived for in any trade, Edman. It's not so easy to "do better than Venable". I would also like to point out that I have never said "We will ride to the Promised Land on the strength and grace of Will Venable's bat...should we be so wise as to make that trade." But have you forgotten just how hard it is to acquire ANY offensive talent for less than your mom's kidney around baseball these days? All I've been saying is that San Diego has a glut of players at two spots and not enough pitching- both of which constitute an opportunity for us. It's not even my idea, originally. It's an idea from another writer that I looked into and agree with. For the record, I hope Zduriencik can do better than Venable. I'll even go on the record and say that I have a sneaky suspicion that he WILL. Also...giving the guys the full-season shots they've earned thus far and winning a couple more games via transactions don't have to be exclusive to one another. Getting a Venable makes sense if the price is right. I've maintained that the price has to be right all along. Oh, yes. One thing I think you forget, Edman, is how much it takes to even be average in OUR left field. It's just about the most spacious in the league, it definitely helps to have true outfielder range to play 81 games there. Like you, I'll take even an average defender there. There's value in that, for sure. (And Carp does NOT have the range to flourish there, and I'll wager he's not even average. I don't care how much weight he's lost, we'll be living with a Raul Ibanez 2.0 as long as he patrols left.) Shawnuel made a good point in post #42. Montero's presence undoubtedly DOES cut into Carp's ABs there. So we may well see Carp play left field a lot more than what I probably wish to see. If I'm ever too dramatic, well...I'll have to respectfully ask you to deal with it. I write screenplays and drama, among several other things. So the element of drama is always on my mind. And it probably infiltrates even my simplest writing. Heh. Drama. It's probably what got me to love baseball in the first place. |
| 44. By: Gibbo on 01-17-2012 10:34:26 Eel said @#43... even if it's not Venables a move that gives us competition and depth is a good one. |
| 45. By: valencia on 01-17-2012 12:50:37 "But have you forgotten just how hard it is to acquire ANY offensive talent for less than your mom's kidney around baseball these days?" It's funny you say this when the Yankees and Red Sox say the exact opposite. Maybe you don't realize how hard it is to acquire pitching talent? To give it up any talent for a minor upgrade like Venable is making a move to make a move, not a good move. It's like moving your bishop one square forward then one square back - sure you did something, but it didn't really change anything. I think anything better than a low A reliever prospect is too much for a guy like Venable. A guy like Erasmo who Dave suggested, a 21 year old who pitched AAA, is WAY too much. |
| 46. By: danelboones on 01-17-2012 15:30:18 I think Carp is a highly underated defender in LF. I only remember one play hit in his direction that I felt he should have got to that he didn't, and he kept it from getting behind him. IMO Wells has the best arm in the organization and should split time with Guti if he can't hit or stay healthy. Saunders and Trayvon were brutal to watch in CF. |
| 47. By: StandinPat on 01-17-2012 15:48:24 Venable makes less sense with Montero sure to get ample ABs at DH, pushing Carp to LF more often. However, the idea the Carp is an "average" defensive LF is absurd. He had a -18 UZR/150, small sample size for sure, but he wasn't an athletic 1B to begin with. Venable is an above average bat vs righties and away from Petco. Couple that with above average defense and he's head and shoulders better than Saunders, Robinson, Peguero, etc. Additionally, a big part of Dave's argument for Venable was his ability to fill in at CF. With questions still abound about Guti's health and future role, having depth, even if it's only averagish, at CF is more than useful. Anyone using arm strength as a primary judge of an outfielder's defensive value is missing the boat big time. @46 Carp is underrated in LF, but Saunders and Robinson were brutal in CF? I couldn't possible disagree more. |
| 48. By: Edman on 01-17-2012 20:03:46 Who cares if Venable is heads and shoulders above Saunders, Robinson, Peguero, etc.? I'd rather continue to look at our kids and see if they develop. Seattle should give their own kids the first opportunity to win jobs, rather than trade for stop-gap filler. Unless I missed something, I don't think the M's are looking for that missing key to the division title. |
| 49. By: rocketdawg31 on 01-17-2012 22:19:16 Edman, I want to look at our kids, too. I've never truly advocated otherwise. But we should look at the kids when they've earned extended major-league auditions, not because we're not willing to try and have other options in place. The fastest way to ruin any young player is have him up in the big leagues before he's ready- even if he's proved pretty conclusively that he's almost there. From what I saw last year, Trayvon Robinson (whom I'm higher on than many scouts) needs about 350-400 AAA at-bats (and a better plan against lefties)beofre we can call him big-league timber...and anything less is a bit of a rush-job. Michael Saunders was a complete mess to end 2011. Here's hoping that he's been figuring stuff out- in terms of talent, I think his probably exceeds Robinson's...but oh, has it been painful to watch him at the ML-level. But I have to say: Unlike Robinson, I think Saunders is at a point right now where he needs to be in the bigs...somewhere. I'm not even gonna go into Carlos "Hey, Big Guy...Here Comes The Breaking Ball" Peguero again. |
| 50. By: rotoenquire on 01-17-2012 23:04:53 I would rate upside higher on Robinson, Chiang, Carp, Wells. Venable has no more further upside. Venable 5 years in the minors had a couple decent years at A and Triple A ball. In 1165 Major League AB's Venable has a .249 AVG 36 Hr and 62 SB's 330 K's 114 Walks. He swings ALLOT and misses ALLOT. after 1 thousand Ab's you can get a good read on a player. And Venable is a #5 OF at best. Robinson is a speed machine 38 SB in 10, 47 in 09 and 22 in each of 08 and 07. Robinson in 11, with 9 doubles and 26 home runs.(AWEFULL for a power hitter) Doubles are the major indicator in the minors for possible home run output in the majors. By Breaking away from being an on base steal guy Robinson took a step backwards at the plate. Robinson major area on need to work on is his plate discipline he was horrid at judging pitches. His defense is well above par. Chiang is a power bat. he strikes out a bit much not near as bad as Robinson. But, his power translates very well. 44 Doubles and 18 Home Runs is a good set of numbers with a decent batting AVG. A decent arm and range so no real negative there. Carp Power numbers are mid range keeping ti around 25 doubles and 18 home runs on the average in the minors. his Batting Average was nothing to ever really give anyone a sense of wow. A .260 line with 18-15 home runs is about were he fits into with average defense. Wells numbers in the minors look similar to that of Carp. And really they fall into a lot of the same mold. But Wells is the clear better defender of the 2. |
| 51. By: rth1986 on 01-18-2012 06:52:24 I agree that we have enough LF prospects (or moderately interesting players under 25) that we shouldn't be seriously exploring the market. If Will Venable is really cheap, then I'd pursue him, otherwise I'd forget it. I was advocating for Seth Smith before the A's snapped him up. Now there's no one reasonable left. I'd be comfortable with a Carp/Wells type platoon. With Carp occasionally DH-ing when Montero is catching. Between Robinson, Chiang, Catricala, Saunders, and Peguero, the Mariners have a TON of near ML-ready corner outfield talent. They all deserve to get looks in 2012. Not much room for them if the Mariners acquire someone. Unless the Mariners land Fielder, I'd rather them focus their attention on getting a #2/3 starter (Oswalt/Jackson?), another reliever with upside (Oviedo?), and a RH third baseman (Reynolds/Prado/Headley?). If a trade is to be made, I'd be dangling Liddi, Saunders, Beavan, Peguero, and perhaps Kyle Seager over anyone else. Those guys aren't likely to have much of a spot on this team in the future, but could have value for other clubs. I'd also actively shop Miguel Olivo. Shed that salary and split Montero and Jaso at catcher, with Moore or Gimenez as a possible third catcher. |
| 52. By: SKearney on 01-18-2012 18:23:24 Question: Do you think part of Fielder's hesitancy in coming to Seattle is who is hitting around him? Sure. Adding Montero I believe helps "sell" him on Seattle up an coming offense. I'm still not sure he will sign anyway, but I think it is more likely now with Jesus on team. Whether you are for or against signing Fielder I think it would ignite us significantly as a fanbase and a team. |
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