| By Jason A. Churchill |  | By 01-14-2012 |
The Seattle Mariners have agreed to a deal with the New York Yankees that will send right-handers Michael Pineda and Jose Campos to the Bronx in exchange for righty Hector Noesi and Jesus Montero, a catcher by trade.The deal may not become official until as late as Tuesday, as all four players are out of the country and need to be notified and complete physicals, and Monday is a holiday.
I was told the two sides discussed Ivan Nova rather than Noesi, but the M's settled on the latter.
In Montero, the Mariners get the No. 2 power-hitting prospect in baseball -- behind Washington's Bryce Harper -- who has six years of service left in the chamber. He's a right-hander, but won't be destroyed by Safeco Field because he's a hitter, not simply a slugger, and has power that could equal 40 doubles and 30 homers annually.
He could also hit .280 or better and has the plate skills to work counts and draw enough walks to post on-base marks in the .360-.380 range in his prime years. Scouts love his strength and hes even able to hit with authority out on his front foot, like that of future Hall of Famer Frank Thomas.
He's not going to catch long-term and may not catch much, if at all, for Seattle in 2012. I'd guess they give at least some time back there, however. He's a big guy at 230-240 pounds and while he has relatively impressive athleticism, his arm path is long and slow and his pop times are far from anything to write home about, to say the least.
His bat profiles at first base or DH, however, and he just turned 22 years old, so the M's will get the very best of the Venezuelan and he won't be eligible for arbitration until after the 2014 season. They can pencil him into the lineup for the next several years.
The M's also receive Noesi, 24, who is a projectable 6-foot-3 and 205 pounds. He sits in the low-90s with his fastball and offers an average slider. His changeup still needs a lot of work, which will likely stash him at the back of the rotation as he has problems with left-handed batters. He is a strike thrower, however, reminding some of former M's hurler Doug Fister, minus five inches in height and occasional ground ball tendencies.
Noesi should be part of the Mariners' rotation coming out of spring training, regardless of how the club handles Danny Hultzen. If Hultzen makes the 25-man roster right off the bat, Blake Beavan is more likely to start the year in Tacoma than is Noesi, at least in my opinion.
The Yankees get Pineda, 23 in less than a week, a present No. 3 starter with No. 2 stuff and a potential No. 1 future. He touches 98-plus with a lively fastball and his slider was plus at times in 2011. His changeup will have to develop and he'll need to hold his stuff through September to reach ace status.
If he can build on 2011 he should have no problem reaching legit No. 2 status, and could someday lead the league in strikeouts. The velocity is easy, but he has worn down in each of the last two seasons, so the Yankees do have a bit of a project on their hands as far as workload is concerned.
Campos, who will be 19 until late July, is a three-pitch specimen with above-average command of a 90-93 mph fastball that has touched 96. He throws a lot of strikes and is comfortable with his changeup, but there's not much movement on the pitch right now; he's relied on the change of speeds alone to keep hitters off balance.
His breaking ball is a slurvy curveball that he commands well and uses as his out pitch. Campos lands on a stiff front leg and as ESPN Insider's Keith Law wrote Friday night, he fails to get over his front side.
He's still three-plus years from the big leagues and was ticketed for the Midwest League in 2012. A future No. 3 with a chance to be a No. 2, the 6-foot-4, 195-pound Campos was going to be Prospect Insider's No. 5 prospect heading into the season.
Overall, the M's and Yankees both win here, as they each fill holes that sorely needed covering. Giving up both Pineda and Campos is a lot to sacrifice for the Mariners, but hitters are much more difficult to come by in baseball these days, especially for Seattle, an organization with six losing season in the past eight years and no postseason appearances in more than a decade.
Acquiring Montero does not necessarily mean no Prince Fielder. Fielder may choose to sign elsewhere -- he's visited both Texas and Washington and not Seattle -- but the M's aren't closing that door.
As is, the M's likely play Justin Smoak and Montero in some sort of timeshare at first base and DH. Montero will be learning the position, so it may take some time. I don't see him catching much during the regular season.
If the M's win the Fielder race, Smoak probably becomes trade bait, despite the fact that the M's would be selling low on the switch hitter. With Montero and Fielder in the fold, Smoak would have no place to play, and Montero's defense behind the plate just isn't good enough to get by on any regular basis.
I expect the M's to stay on the lookout for starting pitching, perhaps even enough to dabble in the Edwin Jackson or Roy Oswalt markets. The search for offense is far from over, however, and the club still has pieces to move.
The M's are still a club looking at contention in 2013 and beyond, not 2012, but adding Montero Friday was a hell of an addition to what the club has in place in Dustin Ackley, Felix Hernandez and a still-strong stable of young pitching.
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Comments
The following 69 comment(s) for this article are shown below:
| 1. By: dewey on 01-14-2012 00:20:40 I like the deal nice job Jack.I saw about 20 of Monteros bats watching NYY games on TV this guy has power to all fields and safecon isnt to big for him he is a monster we will love him. |
| 2. By: baseballman on 01-14-2012 00:29:37 I loved thinking about having Felix/Pineda as a 1/2. But now, I really love thinking about our young offensive core in Ackley, Smoak, Montero, Carp. Plus guys like Franklin, Martinez and Catricala knocking on the door. Like JAC said, bats are hard to come by, but now it seems like we just may be on the right track to put together a legit (and cheap) offense. Finally! |
| 3. By: sexymarinersfan on 01-14-2012 00:37:12 Welcome to Seattle Jesus! Good bye Michael. I will miss you. Thank you for signing my ball at Fanfest last year. I look forward to watching your career. I hope surely do hope this means Montero will be at Fanfest this year. I'm definitely going both days again. I wish Smoak would turn out. |
| 4. By: marinerforever on 01-14-2012 00:39:51 I would advacate and edwin jackson contract of 3years 40million if would allow you to release vargas or trading him saving more money felix jackson beaven noesi and the japanesse pitcher sorry for blanking on the name and you have hultzen and paxton waiting and while i know iam in the minorty right now i would still make an offer of six years 150 to prince why not just stick montero behind the plate and see what happens what if he is piazza so you give up a little defense but you have a 5war player with prince and smoak ackley ichiro montero prince smoak carp guti seager ryan that is an awesome lineup |
| 5. By: Jason A. Churchill on 01-14-2012 00:40:29 Imagine if they signed Prince, or more likely, traded for another hitter. This coming season is going to be fun. It's still not a good offense, but if some things fall the Mariners' way... What if Smoak plays 150 games and is more of what we saw in April-May and September then the middle months? What if Ackley takes the expected step forward -- or even more than that? What if Gutierrez bounces back to respectable levels? What if the catcher tandem works? What if Carp and Wells provide average or better offense in left field? What if Ichiro bounces back some? That is a lot of what ifs, but none of them are remotely ridiculous, and I'd be surprised if at least half of them DIDN'T occur. As is, and assuming they stay relatively healthy, I'd bet on the M's scoring 100 more runs in 2012 than they did in 2011. Maybe more than that. And in 2013 when Ackley and Smoak hit year three and Montero starts year two? Legit. |
| 6. By: Jason A. Churchill on 01-14-2012 00:43:36 marinerforever, There are two things regarding Montero's defense that need to be said here. 1. It's not just giving up a little defense at catcher. It's giving up defense at catcher. Period. 2. He's 22 and already 230-240 pounds. The chance that he's adequate behind the plate as he matures physically are less than zero. I can't imagine any club, especially one in Seattle that will continue to build on pitching and defense, surrendering defense behind the plate long term. I'd bet he catches some in 2012 as they figure out whether or not Smoak and Carp fit for the long haul, but in the end Montero is a first baseman or DH. |
| 7. By: Shawnuel on 01-14-2012 00:48:58 Piggy backing on Jason's "what ifs", It seems that Smoak has worked himself into much better shape this off-season according to Zduriencik. He is at 224 lbs. and has redefined his upper body. Likewise, Guti has gained 19 lbs since last year and feels very strong. Certainly nothing to hang your hat on but encouraging, none-the-less. |
| 8. By: sexymarinersfan on 01-14-2012 00:56:18 I predict by next Xmas that Montero jersey's will not only be the #1 seller in the NW but the nation for baseball apparel. |
| 9. By: kyler on 01-14-2012 01:09:53 I'm with marinerforever, why not still go after Prince? The money that was supposedly there before this trade is still there. Doesn't this show Prince that he'd have some protection in Ackley and Montero? Concerning Montero and catching, if I'm reading his Baseball-reference.com stats right, he's had nearly 200 games behind the plate in '10-'11 at AAA Scranton/Wilkes-Barre with decent stats. I don't know what kind of game he calls, but would it hurt that much to try him out at C if the team has this line up? Ichiro RF (Willing to have another leadoff if better option) Gutierrez CF Ackley 2B Fielder 1B/DH Montero C Smoak DH/1B Carp LF Seager 3B Ryan SS I do hate to see Pineda and "The Staaank" go, but I like this move to add offense. It just can't stop here. |
| 10. By: valencia on 01-14-2012 01:19:19 I think Z did his due-diligence, and thinks Montero has at least some chance at sticking at C. Can't see Fielder happening anymore, unless you're 100% sure Montero can stick at C, or have a trade lined up for Smoak. Honestly with this move we don't need Fielder anymore. We just went in a completely different direction, going full-out young. Montero, Ackley, Seager, Smoak, Carp, Wells, with Catricala and Franklin on the way...not the mention the under 23 arms, Erasmo, Beavan, Hultzen, Paxton, Nosei. It's ridiculous how young we are. We're probably going to be the youngest team in baseball, but also the one with the most potential with around 6 A or former A prospects playing as rookies/sophomores. Even the KC farm could boast half that, and they took ages to get there. |
| 11. By: short on 01-14-2012 01:21:47 I think the M's are out on Fielder. And likely for good reason: he probably didn't want to sign with a rebuilding (Since 2004!) team in outer Mongolia. The M's probably figured he would cost too much to lure out here. Selling on Smoak now would be ridiculous. He could be outproducing Fielder in three years, given that he can actually play defense. You must keep him one more year and see if, by any chance, losing his father, getting beaned in both thumbs and the freakin' FACE had, perhaps, a tiny impact on his performance last year. I think the M's do what Dave Cameron is talking about and go after more veteran pitching. For some reason there are good pitchers out there at a reasonable price. Fielder is NOT at a reasonable price. So we added hitting through trade, and we can get back the pitching through dollars. Then hope the Angels' plane flies into the Rangers' plane. |
| 12. By: Mackie on 01-14-2012 01:29:08 I'm fine with trading Pineda for Montero. I don't like losing Pineda, he is an exciting young player who is loads of fun to watch! And I do feel a bit like we might have gotten more in return for both Pineda and Campos. But with the addition of Montero, the Mariners have made a significant upgrade to their offense, probably for next season, and definitely for the future. The Yankees were desperate for pitching, the M's desperate for hitting... so the two teams matched up very well in this trade of highly-talented young players. Getting Montero is a good start toward building a legitimate offense. Between Carp, Smoak, Ackley, Wells and Montero, I think if 3 or 4 of them hit well next season it will represent a very significant upgrade. And looking at the list of "what ifs" Jason shared, I find it hard to see the glass as half empty. I believe there is lots to like about the Mariners going forward. I'm getting pretty excited about Spring Training! What is it, only about five weeks away from now? 8-) |
| 13. By: rotoenquire on 01-14-2012 01:31:35 More like.. Ichiro RF Ackley 2B Smoak 1B/DH Montero DH/1B/C Carp LF/DH Wells LF/RF/CF/DH Guity CF Olivo C/ Jaso C Seagar 3B/ Figgins 2B/3B Ryan SS/SB/ kawasaki SS You can flip Guity into Smoaks slot IF Guity is healthy and his bat returns and move Smoak behind Montero and move Carp down one.. I personally think Seagar is better off at second base. IF Guity stuggles or is traded if he does well. I would like to see Ackley in CF he has the speed range and has proven he can learn a new position and be good at it. Ala R. Yount with the Brewers. What about adding C. Headley 3B in a trade? he is available and may not cost a ton to get. Staff: that would be 4 pitchers that should be #3-5 in the rotation maybe even 4-5 starter range. Need a #2-3, and next year with Paxton and Hultzen you will have it. Maybe even Appel if he falls to #3 in the draft. Felix Vargas Noesi Iwakuma Beavan |
| 14. By: rth1986 on 01-14-2012 01:45:58 Regarding this trade, I don't really like it. The Padres definitely got a much better deal for Latos than the M's did for Pineda. When I heard the M's were close to acquiring a young, impact bat, I was crossing my fingers for Mike Stanton, Logan Morrison, Dominic Brown or Jason Heyward. If Montero is a DH/1B, then I'd rather have Yonder Alonso and Yasmani Grandal. Can't believe they only got Montero and Noesi for Pineda AND Campos. Wow... And I'm really not ready to give up on Smoak anytime soon. He has a legit bat, but he's had some incredibly difficult situations to deal with. If Montero is going to be a DH or 1B, then I'd just rather us pass on Fielder altogether. I think Smoak will be a 3-4 WAR player sooner rather than later. Fielder no longer really fits a need. That being said, I wonder how much offense the Mariners could squeeze out if they tried out Montero at catcher. Imagine having Montero at catcher, Fielder at 1B, Smoak at DH, and Carp/Wells platooning in LF. That's a lot of offense. It's probably not even in consideration...but do you think there's any chance the Mariners try to convert Montero to third base? Catchers typically convert pretty well there, right? There's another place the M's could consider if they are still after Fielder. |
| 15. By: Jason A. Churchill on 01-14-2012 02:12:00 rth1986, The Padres got bulk for Latos, no stars. Montero has big-time star potential at the plate, and he's ready NOW. Yonder Alonso wears Jesus Montero underoos. Print that. And the M's ARE NOT OUT ON FIELDER as a result of this trade. This deal did not change anything. Fielder may not want to come here, anyway, but trading for Montero was not a reaction to the Fielder situation, not a precursor to the Mariners dropping out. |
| 16. By: rth1986 on 01-14-2012 02:16:55 Ha..good to know about Montero versus Alonso. I like Grandal quite a bit though. Either way, glad to hear the M's aren't out on Fielder. It was a double gut-punch today when I heard the Rangers were hosting Fielder and the Mariners traded Pineda. If the Mariners don't get Fielder, then I really hope he doesn't go to Texas. And Jason, do you think there's zero chance that Montero is tried at third base? |
| 17. By: Juan Valdez on 01-14-2012 02:23:02 I'm tired of all this Fielder nonsense. I wish the M's would just tell Boras they aren't interested and move on. He's one player. |
| 18. By: Gilligan on 01-14-2012 02:28:34 I think with the prince money they should take a look at Cespedes as a free agent. We seem to have enough first base DH prospects. |
| 19. By: valencia on 01-14-2012 02:30:21 If you really want to punt defense for offense, Montero at C, Catricala at 3B, Seager at SS, Wells in CF, Carp in LF, and Fielder or whoever at DH. The pitchers will cry, but you will score 700+ runs at least. |
| 20. By: rth1986 on 01-14-2012 02:34:19 valencia, That defense would be pretty terrible, but it's nice to dream of that offense... I guess that defense would be more acceptable if the Mariners had more power pitchers, but now the entire staff outside of Felix seem to pitch to contact. Without strikeout guys like Pineda or Bedard around, the Mariners will need a good defense even more... |
| 21. By: Scruggers on 01-14-2012 02:35:53 Any chance Smoak could convert to left field? If Raul could play out there, why not Smoak? Couldn't be that much worse. |
| 22. By: Boy9988 on 01-14-2012 02:42:57 Everyone has talked about Montero's athleticism and some have said he has a fantastic arm. Is he too big to learn to play third? |
| 23. By: rocketdawg31 on 01-14-2012 03:01:02 Boy9988, It's not an athletic issue. Think about this for a sec. You would be asking a kid to play a position he's NEVER played before...and learn how to do it at the highest level at a time when his bat is ready NOW. Like adjusting to the bigs alone isn't enough for anybody. The major leagues is not a development league. It's a league for finished products. FWIW, I have heard he has a fantastic arm and marginal speed for a 230-lb. athlete. But last year, Yankee skipper Joe Girardi shot down- in cold blood- speculation that Montero could be a right fielder. "He doesn't have the range. He wouldn't look good out there." Girardi said. Point blank. Right field and third base are different things, I know...but let's just let the guy mash at first base, DH and an occasional catcher start. |
| 24. By: rocketdawg31 on 01-14-2012 03:08:33 Re: Post #21 Scruggers- Raul could not play left field, he was ther- and we suffered the worst left field defense in the league when he did- because the bat played. We have just about the most spacious left field in the AL. Carp runs a bit better than Smoak, and even he's a real dicey prospect to play there full-time (Carp reminds me of Ibanez on so many levels it's not even funny). Nah, if you're gonna plug someone in other than Carp, it needs to be a legit outfielder with legit OF speed. Liiiiiiiike...Casper Wells the 5th. My pick to claim the left field job outright during 2012. |
| 25. By: valencia on 01-14-2012 03:09:38 He should play Catcher. That way you keep Carp at DH instead of LF, and let Wells play LF, Gutierrez CF. If you do it the other way, with Jaso/Olivo at C, Montero at DH, you end up with Carp in LF, and Gutierrez or Wells in CF. While you might upgrade the C defense from Montero to Olivo/Jaso (which honestly isn't that great) you downgrade LF defense, potentially CF defense, and even offense since you're playing Olivo/Jaso over Gutierrez or Wells, whoever's worse. |
| 26. By: Juan Valdez on 01-14-2012 06:12:35 I don't know why he can't learn left field. I'm curious why the Yankees developed him as a catcher to begin with. He seems like a guy that you would normally try to develop at 3B, and then if that didn't work, then you think about moving him to 1B or a corner outfield spot. |
| 27. By: Tommy O on 01-14-2012 08:22:54 Great move for both teams. Z doesn't have to "win" all trades, some are win-win. The way I look at it, we gave up a lot as did NY. NY receives an outstanding power pitcher with injury concerns plus, a young arm who finishes on a stiff left leg. I'm not saying they WILL get injured but, if one has a history and the other finishes on a stiff leg. Im just saying... Seattle traded from an area of great strength and received a 3-4 starter and a super star young bat both are ML ready and legit. I love our core of young pitching and hitters. 2013-? will fun in Seattle. Good luck to both outgoing players, their development will be closely followed by Ms fans. |
| 28. By: marinerforever on 01-14-2012 08:50:34 I think it is funny how everyone is crazy over catricala and no one brings up martinez from the tigers trade he is the thrid baseman of the future big power with defense. I also think boras is losing leverage with feilder clients so he has to float out there that the rangers are thinking feilder otherwise he has no way to leverage any kind of deal just not enough clubs that need of want to pay prince no way he tops adrian gonales deal |
| 29. By: ripperlv on 01-14-2012 09:37:03 I'm excited about the thought of Montero bopping the ball around. JZ has another chip in the Fielder poker game with Boras. Or he can go after Jackson. I won't try to guess who's going to play where at this time, because I think there are more changes coming. |
| 30. By: TXMariner on 01-14-2012 10:22:42 I hate to see Pineda go but this team is desperate for hitting so I like the trade. I do think they will give Montero a shot at playing catcher which would allow them to use Carp in the DH and Wells in LF, provided they don't make further moves to shore up those positions. He can't be much worse than Olivo was defensively. |
| 31. By: Blowgun7 on 01-14-2012 10:23:19 I don't see the point in dropping big money on Fielder right now unless Montero is your catcher. Signing Fielder means Smoak is gone, and Smoak has the potential still to be an excellent player. Rather just keep Smoak. Sign an Oswalt for a year at whatever price he wants, and play out the 2012 season. Then take all the money saved from not getting Fielder and using it next offseason. Also, by that point you'll know what you have with Smoak and Montero and can better attack your weaknesses with the money available. |
| 32. By: Rampageoholics on 01-14-2012 10:33:01 I am a big fan of Danny Hultzen, but if it's true that young hitting is currently more valuable and harder to obtain than young pitching, then I have a really tough time understanding passing on Rendon (or Starling) in last June's draft. Has the market changed that much since the draft? |
| 33. By: maqman on 01-14-2012 11:00:29 I believe this move cancels out giving Fielder an albatross contract, if for no other reason that's a win to me. As to if Texas signs Prince, if they do that they are probably saying they don't expect to sign Hamilton after this season when he becomes a free agent. I'd rather bid on him than Fielder, or trade for Votto when the Reds realize they can't afford to keep him. Z's still got a nice stock of arms,nobody ever mentions Forrest Snow who was probably the best pitcher in the AFL last fall for instance. Plus a couple of bullpen arms will emerge from The Pile and maybe even a starter during spring training. Additionally I doubt if Z is done yet this off-season. Think of the budget space we will have after Figgins and maybe Ichiro go, we've got a lot of cheap talent under control for years to come, we can afford to keep Felix an M for his whole career. |
| 34. By: bigwhitesled on 01-14-2012 11:30:53 i guess my problem in this deal, I just cannot get over including Campos in this deal. On its own, Pineda for Montero seems fair. Saving Campos for another deal in the future for hitter or our own staff is my preference. Campos is a future #1 starter in a perfect world. They don't grow on trees! |
| 35. By: KingFelix on 01-14-2012 11:36:00 Olney is reporting both the Yanks and Ms think Montero is a catcher. If that is the case maybe we still go big and sign Fielder and solve the offense for seasons to come along with 3B Martinez and SS Franklin on there way in 2013 and 2014. The lineup below would be fun to watch: RF Ichiro CF Gutz 2B Ackley 1B/DH Fielder C. Montero DH/1B Smoak LF Carp / Wells SS. Ryan 3B. Seager |
| 36. By: docsmith on 01-14-2012 11:56:13 It's taken me awhile to digest this move. In the end, I think this move makes sense only because of our farm system. This is a case where it makes some sense to use WAR. Essentially, I think we can expect Montero and Pineda to be of similar benefit in 2012, or of similar WAR. So, if you follow USSM, before this trade the M's were ~75 wins and after this trade (with no other moves) we are probably still projected at ~75 wins. We just substituted offense for pitching. But there are three reasons why this makes sense: 1) Other moves can be made, most specifically, Hultzen/Paxton/FA may come up and partially or fully replace Pineda, 2) ultimately, we have Montero for 6 yrs and Pineda for 5 more cost controled years. So, if say they both average 3-5 WAR for their cost controlled years, we come out ahead just because of that extra year. And 3) I wonder if anyone is considering that adding a solid bat, one that can work pitchers as it sounds Montero can, will actually make others (Smoak, Carp, Ackley, etc) better. The second pieces of the deal, Campos and Noesi...I kinda get...A high ceiling player at low A ball for a ~#3-4 major leaguer with 5 yrs of control. On the surface, that seems fair. But I have to admit, I cringed when I heard Campos was included. Overall, I agree with the sentiment that we overpaid at least slightly. Campos's ceiling and the fact that Pineda is more established (full yr of very good performance)are the primary reasons. That said, I think what makes this trade so interesting is the fact the wildly different results could happen with each piece of the trade. Montero, Pineda, and Campos could all turn into perenial all-stars or, each of them, could flame out/get injured. I know that is true with any trade, but here it seems especially true given the history of injuries for Pineda/Noesi, the issues with Montero at catcher, etc. Noesi could also be a very nice surprise. Some of those minor league numbers are pretty intriguing. Another way that I am looking at this is two years ago, would we have traded Cliff Lee and Pineda for Montero and Smoak. I have to think we would have. |
| 37. By: marinerforever on 01-14-2012 12:05:25 everyone needs to realize that campos was behine paxton walker hultzen and the pitcher we draft with the thrid pick you have to trade something to get something plus engle is the best at finding the gems down there in the dr so iam sure he can find another campos |
| 38. By: masonb on 01-14-2012 12:22:26 I know this is putting the cart way before the horse, but say Fielder does decide to come here: What kind of player could Smoak be flipped for? It seems like Z might try to target a young OF for him, and when I examine teams for potential fits, it seems like someone like Adam Jones would be a good target. I know it would take other pieces like Walker or Paxton, but is that the kind of player Z might target? |
| 39. By: Blowgun7 on 01-14-2012 12:31:30 You wanna trade Smoak and Paxton for Adam Jones? That would be a disaster. |
| 40. By: sexymarinersfan on 01-14-2012 12:31:54 With the Houston Astros pubicly saying that "they would be willing to eat half of Carlos Lee's salary", we he make sense to go and get in a trade? Maybe for say, Mike Carp? I know he's a not a lefty hitter. Or does Dave Cameron's Will Venable idea sound more realistically plausible? While I do like the trade for Montero, I'm not in love with it. I really hate the fact that we traded Campos. That really stings! However, Noesi could be part of a trade packaged around Carp or Olivo for another bat that might fight around 3B or the OF. I think this opens up a TON of different ave's that we could go down now compared to where we were before this trade. Michael, you were awesome to watch in a Mariners uniform man! I look forward to seeing you have a long and great career and just at least think about us when you become a free agent(yeah right, hah ahaaa...). Montero is gonna be a beast. I don't care that he's mostly profiled as a DH, just get his stick in the middle of this lineup ASAP!!!!! This offense has needed a NITRO BOOST INFUSION for 2 years now, and it just got one in a big WAY!! I can't wait to get my first Montero jersey. I wonder what his number is gonna be, it can't really be 63 can it? "7" maybe? Let Roger work with him. Obviously the M's think they can salvage him at catcher. That's a good thing. The book is still out on Noesi. I think his numbers will improve due to pitching at Safeco obviously and that it'll be his 2nd time go around. Might be a useful arm in the pen. You can never have too many good arms, and Jack is picking'em up left and right right now! Good job Z. Way to man up and get this deal done. That took some balls. Good bye Mr. Pineda. You will be missed. AND HELLO JESUS MONTERO!!! EVERYONE LOVES A HOME RUN HITTER!! |
| 41. By: jgstecker on 01-14-2012 13:00:28 I'm going to assume Montero is going to catch for now. If that's the case, does Jaso go back to AAA? They can't carry 3 catchers. And if Montero only catches a day or two a week, he's not going to improve. It's hard to imagine Olivo getting traded at this point, but maybe they think Jaso has enough experience to back up Montero. Also, did the decision to bring Pineda up on day 1 last year cost us Jose Campos? If he had made his first 3 starts in Tacoma he'd still have six ears of service time, the same as Montero. That extra year of service time would probably have been enough to drop Campos and Noesi from the deal. |
| 42. By: TXMariner on 01-14-2012 13:05:32 I simply can't get too worked up about losing Campos. I'm sure the kid is a fine prospect but he's 3-4 years away and even if he eventually becomes an ace we're talking about possibly feeling deep pangs of regret maybe six or seven years from now. A million things can and will happen between now and then to make the M's competitive or non-competitive so I'm just not going to lose any sleep over what might happen that far in the future. Jack Z and his staff have also shown a knack for finding good young pitching so if Campos was the final sticking point in making the deal happen I can live with it. |
| 43. By: Hailcom on 01-14-2012 13:12:57 We all love to "win" trades, but this one makes sense for both teams now, which is the only way to judge whether a move is rational. Remember the whole Montero v. Smoak debate with all the great things said about both? Who would have imagined Z would orchestrate having both these top prospects in the line-up by 2012, cost controlled for years to come, and still have Felix? Ichiro, Ackley, Smoak, Montero, Carp...that's a chunk of the line-up made up of talented hitters! And although I loved watching Pineda, you have to give up something great to get something great. As said above, with Hultzen, Paxton, Walker, & potentially our 3rd pick in this year's draft not far from competing at the Major League level, I am feeling more and more optimistic about 2013 and beyond. And we do not know that we are out of the Fielder mix. Boras is a very clever SOB. It is possible (though impossible to know) that Boras identified Seattle early on as the place most likely to pay the big $$ for Fielder. How best to create leverage when other suitors so willing are scarce? One way is to create a story that Fielder does not want to come to Seattle even for big money...meaning we have to offer Bigger money, bidding against an alleged reluctance. Of course, having landed Montero, we can honestly go back to Boras and say: We still love Fielder, but as you see, our need for him has been reduced. Psych plays are common in high level negotiations. But it is all just educated guesses. I recognize very good arguments can be made for the Nats, Rangers, Dodgers, etc. For the moment, though, it's possible to dream of a line-up that goes: Ichiro; Ackley; Montero (catcher); Fielder; Smoak; Carp; Gutti; Seager; Ryan. Damn, would that be different. And fun. |
| 44. By: Blowgun7 on 01-14-2012 13:30:05 I'd feel a lot better about our core group of hitters if I knew Smoak was a legit middle of the order bat going forward. I think his development in 2012 is critical for the future of this team. |
| 45. By: maqman on 01-14-2012 13:33:14 A reader of Dave Cameron's post about the trade compared Montero, J. Upton, M. Stanton and J. Heyward through their respective ages 18 through 21 years. The short story is he's as good or better than them. The reader's handle is everdiso and his figures are about 1/4 of the way down the page at: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/yankees-land-michael-pineda-dont-pay-retail/ He got 30 likes from readers for it. |
| 46. By: rotoenquire on 01-14-2012 14:05:06 OK looking at 4 different web sites to get 2012 Mariner payroll figured out. I took the high numbers from each. ESPN too mlbtraderumors and others. 51.612 Mill is what I get for a current 25 man roster as of right now. IF the Payroll includes the 40 man roster your looking at 60.112 Mill. I do not believe we are on the hook for any outside the organization payroll such as M. Bradley. The M's have said there payroll will be smaller than last years almost 85 Million. The M's should actually have under there self imposed budget restraints anywhere from 28.388 Mill and 19.888 Million to spend. that also figuring a 5 Mill drop in payroll from last year otherwise you can raise those too 32.388 Mill too 24.888 Mill. Just enough to sign a Fielder to your roster. Maybe Jason can define the numbers better: B. Beavan SP 480K C. Furbush SP 480K King Felix 18.5Mil Iwakuma SP 1.5Mil Base 3.4 with Incentives B. League CL 2.25Mil S. Kelley RP 480K C. Ruffin RP 480K G. Sherrill RP 1.2Mil J. Vargas SP 2.25Mil T. Wilhelmsen RP 480K H. Noesi RP/SP 480K A. Hielman RP 480K M. Olivo C 2.5Mil J. Jaso C 480K D. Ackley 2B 480K M. Carp 1B 480K C. Figgins 3B 9.5 Mil B. Ryan SS 1Mil J. Smoak 1B 480K K. Seagar 3B 480K F. Gutierrez OF 4.312Mil Ichiro OF 18Mil C. Wells OF 480K M. Kawasaki SS 480K D. Ford OF 480K A lot of league minimum guys on the roster... |
| 47. By: Kryten on 01-14-2012 14:05:47 I love the trade. Seems every year we find a new gem pitcher. Better to trade both Pineda and Campos while their value was high. If we wait long enough to create a logjam of starters, we lose value. I think defense is very important, so Montero should stick to DH and be a backup only if needed at catcher or first. I would not stick him in a new position that leads to giving up hits or extra bases. As for Campos vs Noesi, you can't underestimate the value of a guy who has made it to the majors and been successful. From what I read, chances are 50/50 that Campos makes it to that level in a few years. Nobody is saying he'll be another Felix. |
| 48. By: rotoenquire on 01-14-2012 14:07:54 Crap Montero!!!!!!! 480K take out Ford Numbers are still the same.... |
| 49. By: rocketdawg31 on 01-14-2012 14:08:26 Post #37 said: Everyone needs to realize that Campos was behind Paxton, Walker, Hultzen and the pitcher we draft with the third pick. You have to trade something to get something, plus Engle is the best at finding the gems down there in the DR so I am sure he can find another Campos. A valid point, marinerforever...though it's NOT a slam-dunk we'll go pitcher in the draft at #3. I still favor a Mike Zunino there, IF he's the Best Available Talent. However, we may already be in possession of a talent to replace the loss of Campos. The name Victor Sanchez ring a bell to anyone? Don't get me wrong, I know next to nothing about Sanchez. But we paid a lot of money to get him, and seemed enthused that we had him in the org. But he's a name to file for future consideration...and when he's had some success stateside. |
| 50. By: Hailcom on 01-14-2012 14:24:50 Unfortunately, #46, the payroll is significantly higher. Here's Dave C's estimate. http://www.ussmariner.com/2012/01/08/what-now-2/ There's almost $65M in just Ichiro, Felix, Figgins, Gutti, League, and Vargas. Fielder doesn't fit easily for a 2012 budget, so ownership would have to step up for at least a year, it appears. Campos was a very exciting prospect who generated a lot of buzz this last year, but one can see why Z would want to plug the immediate gap of losing Pineda with a well-regarded young pitcher to give him flexibility for near-term future decisions and moves. |
| 51. By: sexymarinersfan on 01-14-2012 15:19:12 I like Byron Buxton a lot. 5-tool OF that has an arm and can FLY!! He's got pretty good power too. I'm not opposed to us gathering up another pit her. The more the merrier I say! |
| 52. By: rotoenquire on 01-14-2012 15:42:12 Even using Cameron's numbers your adding 8.1 Million which still leaves 16-24 Million under the cap without a payroll decrease. And 11-20 Million with a decrease in payroll.. Still leaves room for something to get done. Remaining F/A of note D. Young(coming back to the game) J. Damon W. Betemit(Could be a nice fit) T. Coffey F. Cordero K. Fukudome J.D. Drew J. Francis(rumors around him) C. Guillen(A return could happen) E. Jackson K. Johnson J. Piniero C. Qualls B. Webb J. Zumaya(I would take a chance here) J. Saunders(Be a decent add) D. Ortiz(Offered Arb?) F. Rodruigez(offered Arb?) P. Fielder Looking at who all is left in F/A. And what our cap might be. Adding Guillen, Francis and Zumaya could be possible. |
| 53. By: rjfrik on 01-14-2012 15:57:53 As of right now, Buxton is my number one position player as well. Would love to grab that kid. |
| 54. By: Panhead55 on 01-14-2012 16:06:09 regards post #49 "The name Victor Sanchez ring a bell to anyone? Don't get me wrong, I know next to nothing about Sanchez. But we paid a lot of money to get him, and seemed enthused that we had him in the org. But he's a name to file for future consideration...and when he's had some success stateside." At the time of signing this last July, Sanchez was considered Venezuela's top prospect. He was 16 and throwing 92-94 mph. The BA scouting report is quite impressive. We probably won't see him in full season ball for a year or two, but he bears watching. |
| 55. By: Timberwolf on 01-14-2012 18:12:12 I like the deal 51%, but I change my mind if we dump Smoak at a low value. I don't think Montero is anything but an emergency catcher long term, but it would be foolish to make that call now in a building season. Hopefully we are still in on Fielder, and if we get him, Smoak, Carp, and Montero can do just fine with 142 games started instead of 162. If Montero catches 75 games, it makes sense. Between Fielder, Smoak, Carp, and Montero, odds are that one of them has a stint on the DL, and we won't be forced to use our back up catcher or shortstop as a DH. Obviously all four of those guys don't fit together as a long term answer, but they do for one season. |
| 56. By: d2ret on 01-14-2012 18:33:41 Between Forrest Snow, Victor Sanchez, and Carter Capps, we have plenty of depth behind the big three of Hultzen, Walker, Paxton. I mean how many no. 1 or 2 starters do you need? I am so impressed with Jack Z right now, because I think he understands the rarity of elite, or potentially elite (in Monteros case) hitters in the game right now. There are many young, elite, arms in the game right now. The number of young, elite hitters can be counted with two hands. Our core just became very, very promising, and much more balanced and well rounded. |
| 57. By: d2ret on 01-14-2012 18:53:32 This time next year we will be stacked with talent from the no. 3 pick, to seeing who rises between Littlewood, Pimentel, Martinez, Hicks, Miller, Marder, etc. I believe we'll see Catricala and Franklin in the show sometime this year. Triunfel is another option at 3rd, with some potential. But thats a ton of guys to look forward to seeing! Some of these guys are going to be solid starters in the MLB, and some might be better! With all this talent competing for spots to fill around Ackley, Smoak, Montero, Carp, Wells, and Seager, this roster is going to be SO fun to watch! I LOVE Montero. We're going to have a lot of great young players to root for, and personally, the guy I cant wait to see is T. WALKER. Boy did we strike gold with that pick. |
| 58. By: d2ret on 01-14-2012 18:59:09 Now that we no longer have Pineda, heres a fun question.. If we ever get back to the post season, who do you think ends up our game 2 starter (behind Felix. Yes, hes still with us at that point) ? |
| 59. By: rth1986 on 01-14-2012 19:22:40 I really hope Montero is given every opportunity to catch in 2012. The Mariners really need to see if there's any realistic possibility of him sticking there. This trade makes me curious about the next move. Is for a #2 starter like Oswalt or Jackson? Is it for a stop-gap DH like Carlos Pena? Is there another trade in the works? Is it for Fielder? I do love thinking of this lineup.. RF Ichiro 2B Ackley DH/1B Smoak (having Fielder protect him would give a boost) 1B/DH Fielder C Montero LF Carp/Wells CF Gutierrez 3B Seager/Liddi/Figgins (maybe Mark Reynolds?) SS Ryan Trade Olivo for a relief arm. Sounds good.... |
| 60. By: titans12 on 01-14-2012 20:07:20 3B or LF and a #2 pitcher.Try to get Prado,Reynolds for 3B.Should get us over .500 RF Ichiro 3B Prado 2B Ackley DH Montero 1B Smoak LF Carp CF Gutti C Jaso SS Ryan 1 Felix 2 E.Jackson 3 Iwakuma 4 Vargas 5 Noesi |
| 61. By: Edman on 01-14-2012 20:17:33 Montero is likely to see some time behind the dish, but will probably be working a lot with Roger Hansen behind the scenes. Most his time will probably be at DH and some firstbase in 2012. Olivo and Jaso figure to get most of the time. I would expect that they'll be working with him to prepare him for more work in 2013. For now, they want him to hit.....period. I suspect that Seattle is happy with Seager and Liddi at third next season. Jack has mentioned many times that thinks Seager can be a productive thirdbaseman. I'd rather have Oswalt on a one-year deal, with an option for next year. |
| 62. By: rth1986 on 01-14-2012 20:24:12 I know Roger Hansen is beloved by the organization, but where is his track record of success? The Mariners haven't turned out a good defensive homegrown catcher in...well...ever. Remember how hyped up Rob Johnson was behind the dish? Yikes. Adam Moore was supposed to be decent, too, but he has allowed a similar amount of passed balls. Either way, I hope Montero is worked out at catcher nonetheless. #60, I like your plan. Getting a #2 and Prado or Reynolds for 3B would make a successful off-season IMO. If the M's wanted to be more daring, they could trade for Seth Smith and maybe swing Carp for a pitcher. |
| 63. By: rotoenquire on 01-14-2012 21:21:50 @62 Carp alone will not swing you a pitcher and you need Carp right now in this lineup. @61 Oswalt would eat up too much of your cap space left at 8Mill. A lesser but productive player such as Francis or Saunders would be better. @60 I like Prado a LOT, But Atlanta would most likely want Montero in the deal. They have been asking for the world on him in trade. @57 The top 6 players right now on most draft boards of note have in order. Appel, Marrero, Buxton, McCullers, Zunino, Giolito. Appel a top flight college pitcher is the #1 pick right now. #2 seems to be a toss up between Buxton and Giolito, McCullers. #3 whomever is not selected by the twins Buxton, McCullers, Giolito,Zunino. I know the M's have some catchers coming up who are decent and adding Montero thinkins the waters. Even though Montero will most likely not play there his entire career. Zunino is a once in a generation Catcher. Think Piazza and this is what Zunino is... |
| 64. By: rjfrik on 01-14-2012 22:25:48 Piazza and Zunino is a bad comp roto. Piazza couldn't catch, never, ever and I think Zunino is head and shoulders above Piazza as a catcher. Piazza = Montero not Zunino |
| 65. By: rth1986 on 01-14-2012 23:20:27 63, Carp could probably land a decent starter or good reliever. He doesn't have a lot of value, but he has some, of course. And no way the Braves would ask for Montero for Prado. They are apparently looking for a stud outfielder. I'm sure a package involving Trayvon Robinson and Alex Liddi would interest the Braves. Might be an overpay on the Mariners behalf though. |
| 66. By: rotoenquire on 01-15-2012 02:58:33 @64 Your right on the defense I was more referring to his bat. Zunino's Defense is FAR superior.. |
| 67. By: baseballman on 01-15-2012 03:13:58 RE 63: this is the MLB, there is no salary cap. Get Oswalt if he's willing to come at. 8 mil, the Ms have money to spend. |
| 68. By: Ianyo on 01-15-2012 11:41:50 Jason, Realistically, do you see the Mariners nabbing another bat this offseason. Fielder, not included since we still know zilch about the progress. Don't think the signing our not signing of Prince would change a thing in regards to improving the offense anyways. I know its been beat to death but now that they grabbed an integral part to the future offense, do you see any smaller trades on the horizon? |
| 69. By: Edman on 01-15-2012 16:28:27 #62, Roger Hanson is recognized as a good catching instructor. Is he the best? Probably not. But catching failures in the Mariner organization have been more about guys who lack the physical skills or not taking instruction well, than his abilities as an instructor. He helped turn Varitek from a below average defensive catcher, into a Major League average (if not slightly above) catcher. Rob Johnson's defense behind the plate was heralded in the minor leagues. What happened to him? Mostly, injuries that limited him, and unwillingness/inability to adapt to changes that he was asked to make, to reduce his passed ball rate. There is nothing wrong with Adam Moore's defense. He's what he was projected to be. You can't entirely blame anyone catching Felix Hernandez, if there are passed balls. The movement on his pitches would be a challenge for Johnny Bench. It would be like blaming Jason Varitek if he had a passed ball with Tim Wakefield pitching. Catcher is a unique position. You don't turn a catcher with an average skill-set into a great defensive catcher. There are skills you have to be born with, or as in the case of Dan Wilson, played a goalie in hockey from a very young age, to have acquired. What could Hansen do with Montero? If he's willing to learn, he could get him to a level where he wouldn't embarrass himself behind the plate. It would depend on how willing he is to be a catcher. He has to want to be that kind of player, and put in the work. Because his bat is so important, I wouldn't expect that he'd spend a lot of games as a catcher. He's probably destine to be a DH-1B, much like Carlos Delgado (a former catcher). His future will depend on how Smoak does this season. But, it's not out of the question that he could play 50 or so games a year as a catcher. |
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