| By Chris Crawford |  | By 12-12-2010 |
The M's have made their move for a SS, acquiring former Cardinal Brendan Ryan for RHP prospect Maikel Cleto.
Ryan is basically a healthy version of Jack Wilson, able to provide plus-defense with little to no offensive value. The right-handed hitting Ryan won't provide much in terms of power or on-base skills, but he was one of the better fielding middle-infielders in the game.
Cleto, on the other hand, was purely an arm speed guy who's secondary stuff needs a boatload of refinement. If he is able to make his slider an average-offering, Cleto might be able to become a decent reliever. Very little has happened that shows that's possible.
It's not a bad move, but it's not one with a whole lot of upside. What you see from Ryan is what you get, and if you aren't getting extra-base hits in St. Louis, you certainly aren't getting them in Seattle. It's an improvement over the position because Jack Wilson can't/won't stay healthy, but it's not a gigantic difference. Since the cost was low, though, it was an acceptable move.
m\'s-trade-for-ss-ryan
Comments
The following 45 comment(s) for this article are shown below:
| 1. By: Madison Mariner on 12-12-2010 14:40:35 Just saw this on MLBTradeRumors.com, and I kind of freaked when I saw that the M's sent Cleto to the Cardinals to get Ryan. I was hoping to see Cleto in the M's bullpen in the future. But, Ryan is a good get, even if he's a younger version of Jack Wilson. Ryan is a good stopgap at 2B until Ackley is ready, and should Wilson get injured, he can take over at SS--and beyond 2011, he could get the SS job until Nick Franklin or someone else takes the job. Also, as an afterthought, how did Cleto compare to Josh Lueke? Who was the more valuable commodity to the M's as of right now? Anyway, good trade by Jack Z. |
| 2. By: Jason A. Churchill on 12-12-2010 14:43:34 I can tell you now, Cleto is really no loss. The club was about to give up on him as a starter and as a relief option, he still had a lot of work to do. Cleto is nowhere near Lueke or Cortes. He lacks a second pitch and hasn't made much progress in that light. He was not going to be ranked in the top 30 in this year's handbook. |
| 3. By: aerichner on 12-12-2010 14:50:24 I like it. Surprised when I saw it show up on my twitter time line but I like it. We'll hear from the crowd that'll bitch about RUNS (and I get it) but it's still a solid move. Does he go straight to 2B or would Seattle look to eat a little bit of salary on Jack Wilson and move him -say, back to Pitt? |
| 4. By: rjfrik on 12-12-2010 15:25:39 Great move. Cleto was spare parts and to get Ryan for him is a great trade IMO. Good work Jack. I like the direction this team is heading in. Ryan is under club control for awhile, is one of the best defenders in baseball and if anything else will be our primary utility infielder for the next few years. Nice work |
| 5. By: shuunto on 12-12-2010 15:40:41 JAC et all, Ryan joins the other IFs in the battle for playing time? L-Rod, Jack, and Josh? Which of Josh, Ryan, and L-Rod can be stashed in Tacoma? My first thought is that you start the season with Jack at SS and L-Rod at 2B, with Ryan as the utility IF... Underachieving Cleto is a bargain price for nicely solidifying the IF. Solid move. |
| 6. By: shuunto on 12-12-2010 16:11:28 Sorry to post back-to-back, but I read at MLBtraderumors that the White Sox are "listening to offers" for Buerle, whose contract expires after 2011. I understand this means very little, if anything at all. But the M's have the bullpen arms that Chicago is reportedly seeking. I like the idea of Buerle spinning a shiny ERA in Safeco for half a season and then flipping him for other pieces at the deadline (if the M's are not in contention by then ;-). Thanks. |
| 7. By: Blowgun7 on 12-12-2010 16:14:07 I don't see how this is simply an "acceptable" trade. We gave up nothing and got a guy who is a league average shortstop, doesn't make big money, and can stay healthy.. Jack Wilson is never on the field, overpaid, and in the last yr of his deal... and Josh Wilson stinks.. This is a significant upgrade at the position IMO |
| 8. By: Edman on 12-12-2010 16:14:07 Great low risk move. It's not a blockbuster, but it does help reshape the team. Cleto may still have some promise, but Seattle has several good minor league relief candidates. #5 - Before L-Rod is even considered, he has to prove that his minor league season last year was more than a one year glitch. He's never put up those kind of numbers before. We can all hope, but I think Jack's going to look for either a veteran secondbaseman or thirdbaseman. At this point, it's way too early to even speculate what's going to happen. Right now, you add pieces and see how the cards fall. |
| 9. By: Madison Mariner on 12-12-2010 16:41:21 "Ryan joins the other IFs in the battle for playing time? L-Rod, Jack, and Josh? Which of Josh, Ryan, and L-Rod can be stashed in Tacoma?" Well, Luis Rodriguez(or L-Rod as you call him) is on a minor league contract, so if he doesn't make the team out of spring training, he can be assigned to Tacoma then added to the 40-man roster and called up later in the season should the M's need him. I guess I'm only thinking of him as minor league depth right now. As to people calling this a great move to replace Jack Wilson, I have to think that Jack Wilson is still assumed to be the incumbent SS and Brendan Ryan is viewed as the 2B to start the season. Sure, Ryan could replace Wilson once Ackley is up if Wilson is injured(or traded), but I don't think the M's are still going to pursue yet another starting infielder, are they? (Right now, they've got Smoak, Ryan, Ja. Wilson, and Figgins, plus Jo. Wilson and both Matt Mangini and Tui. With Smoak at 1B and Figgins at 3B, and Mangini and Tui likely candidates/competitors as for 1 reserve IF spot, that leaves the Wilsons and Ryan to compete for 2 starting spots and another reserve IF spot.) |
| 10. By: Hackinator on 12-12-2010 16:51:48 Ryan has some interesting utube videos ... the DeNiro is pretty good. |
| 11. By: Jason A. Churchill on 12-12-2010 17:13:14 Rodriguez is fodder, guys, come on. He's 30. |
| 12. By: Shawnuel on 12-12-2010 17:54:08 What I also like about this deal is that Ryan is 28 (29 in March) and under team control for 3 years. He is arby eligible but after hitting .223 last season he probably won't get much over 1.5 to 2 mil. Last season, right after wrist surgery, he had a babip of .253. That will likely to go up. in 2009, he hit .292/.340/.400. He claims to be 100% now and if he regresses to about 80% of that he is a league average SS thanks to a career +11 UZR and +23 in 2009. Additionally, most any baseball guy who has seen him will tell you that he plays a great SS. I call this a "good little move." |
| 13. By: Mackie on 12-12-2010 18:19:58 On some forums, commentors are raving about how bad this deal is, basically saying that you don't trade a bad-hitting SS for a kid who can touch 100 mph on the radar, and just watch, he will flourish in St. Louis, every kid the M's trade away becomes an All-Star, every trade Seattle makes is bad, etc.... Seems to me that to truly reap the benefits of the tutelage of the Cards' pitching coach Dave Duncan, wouldn't Cleto have to get to the majors first? At this point he isn't really coming along and his future seems impossible to predict. With an established major leaguer such as Ryan, the Mariners pretty much know what they are getting. The fact that Ryan is basically a younger, healthier version of Jack Wilson is not very inspiring when it comes to the Mariners' issues with offense, but he is apparently Wilson's equal with the glove. And the Mariners could probably do far worse than have Ryan on the field on a regular basis and batting him 8th or 9th in the order for the next couple of years. Let's hope he is all the way back from last year's wrist injury. If so, I think he will be a pleasant surprise for Mariner fans. I am happy they got him anyway, and apparently for as little as they had to give up. |
| 14. By: Jason A. Churchill on 12-12-2010 18:27:03 Cleto doesn't sit 100, I believe he hit 100 once or twice in AFL, but generally the returns were 94-98. And it's fairly true, with 55 command, 60 control and no breaking ball. Hard to hate the trade. |
| 15. By: sexymarinersfan on 12-12-2010 18:37:07 I hope that Smoak and Saunders are ready to contribute on a full time basis next year. So far Jack hasn't really added any significant offensive pieces to next season. Cust and Olivo are upgrades at their positions respectively, that is if they play up to their statistics. I like the Ryan acquisition. We needed some youth at the position. I know we have some in the minors, but it's just not ready yet. Jason, do you think that the FO might be acquiring certain pieces to gear up for a trade in the future? I know we had a lot of activity around this time after the WM last year. |
| 16. By: rjfrik on 12-12-2010 19:21:45 Blow and Ed you both are right. This is a great move, helps reshape a team, adds an upgrade in the infield and cost absolutely nothing. Excellent job JZ |
| 17. By: rjfrik on 12-12-2010 19:28:33 Positions that have been upgraded. C Olivio > Moore/Bard/Johnson 1B Smoak > Kothcman/Branyan 3B Figgens > Lopez DH Cust > Branyan/Griffey/Whoever Positions that are equal IMO 2b Ryan = Figgens Ryan might actually be an upgrade because of his glove. Our middle defense became very very good. Our pitchers will be happy about that. JZ hasn't acquired any big time names but he has upgraded the team. They should show marked improvement. And I have a feeling he isn't done. |
| 18. By: Jason A. Churchill on 12-12-2010 19:42:33 The significant improvements, if there are to be some, will likely come from the kids... Saunders over Saunders/Bradley/etc, Smoak over Kotchman/Branyan/Smoak, Ackley/Ryan over Lopez (since Figgins will probably move to third base). Moore's leash is going to be short, Saunders' leash won't be much longer, especially if he keeps getting hurt. |
| 19. By: slamcactus on 12-12-2010 20:40:53 "Rodriguez is fodder, guys, come on. He's 30." Andres Torres was 32 this year. Old guys can break out too. I'm not saying Rodriguez will, I'm just saying don't write off the possibility completely. |
| 20. By: shortstop9 on 12-12-2010 21:23:29 Not a bad move he is a great defensive SS.I just hope Wilson goes down before the season starts or they have a way to move him. |
| 21. By: shortstop9 on 12-12-2010 21:40:40 Lets get Ordonez now and have SOME offense. |
| 22. By: aerichner on 12-12-2010 22:34:22 slam, #2 said he'd start Luis Rodriguez at 2B (ahead of Ryan) so I guess thats where "Rodriguez is fodder, guys, come on. He's 30." comes from. |
| 23. By: aerichner on 12-12-2010 22:34:44 meant #5, sorry |
| 24. By: StandinPat on 12-12-2010 22:41:25 "Lets get Ordonez now and have SOME offense." Ugggghhhhh......really? Again with this nonsense? You do realize you'd be sticking a 37 yr old who can't defend worth a lick in the gignormous LF space that is Safeco? |
| 25. By: Chris Crawford on 12-12-2010 22:49:26 Wouldn't have an issue with Ordonez if Cust was here, but Cust is here, so. |
| 26. By: Edman on 12-13-2010 01:23:17 Slam.....WTF? You hope Jack Wilson goes down before the season starts? You realize he gets paid, either way? So why wish injury on him? If he plays well, you have a chance to move him. If he doesn't, you just pay him money. A rather silly statement. |
| 27. By: shortstop9 on 12-13-2010 09:01:43 Ordonez is a legit .300 hitter and not a bad defender.He has played well enough to start for Detroit in right all these years.Where do you suppose we get some offense? |
| 28. By: slamcactus on 12-13-2010 10:30:25 You're responding to the wrong guy, Edman. I want Wilson to play effectively for a few months so the team can jettison him to whoever will take him and save a couple million dollars, then I want Ryan to slide over to SS. |
| 29. By: Edman on 12-13-2010 11:11:44 Sorry slam, I meant shortstop. How anyone who doesn't want Wilson on the team, could support his being injured at the start of the season is baffling. The best way to get him off the team is if he plays well and appears to be durable. He's going to get paid either way, and it doesn't appear that Ryan is a better offensive option. slam, you and I are on the same page with this. |
| 30. By: Edman on 12-13-2010 11:15:18 shortstop, here are your own key words..... He has played well enough to start for Detroit..... now let me add in the past. I'm not opposed to adding Ordonez, but he's a Boras client and he isn't coming to Seattle for a couple million dollars. |
| 31. By: Edman on 12-13-2010 11:18:59 I got this snippet off of MLB Rumors. The Dodgers are in discussions with Bill Hall to be their primary left fielder. Hall is a decent back-up IF-OF, but the primary guy in LF? And some criticize Jack's moves. |
| 32. By: shortstop9 on 12-13-2010 11:27:27 We would have to overpay a bit(16/2yrs)? to get Ordonez for sure,but he can play LF here and bat 3rd.You can let him DH occasionally and let Cust play 1B and LF also.I just don't think Jack Wilson will be healthy when the season starts.Ryan is a better defensive SS and a very good base runner.I would rather see Ryan at short and Josh Wilson at 2B than Jack out there.We can't play him just because he makes the most of the three. |
| 33. By: StandinPat on 12-13-2010 12:44:25 "Ordonez is a legit .300 hitter" While I agree that Ordonez is a very good hitter, BA is a really crappy way to quantify offensive value. "and not a bad defender" That's simply not true. He has a career -4.5 UZR/150, and his last three years were -12.8, -12.7, 2.8. The lone positive is probably an outlier, he'll be 37, coming off a broken ankle, and going from RF in Detroit to LF in Safeco. There's no way you can argue that he would be an asset in the field. "He has played well enough to start for Detroit in right all these years" Just because Detroit put him out there, doesn't mean it's a good idea. There are plenty of examples of teams running out poor defenders either in an effort to get their bat in the lineup, or because they simply don't value defense that highly. Either way, it doesn't make it right. "We would have to overpay a bit(16/2yrs)" And where does that extra $8 mil come from? "You can let him DH occasionally and let Cust play 1B and LF" And Cust is an even bigger disaster in the field. |
| 34. By: shortstop9 on 12-13-2010 14:00:51 Nobody on here knows for sure the amount they have to spend.If they stay at 91 mil then it should be around 15.We have spent 2.5 on Cust 3.5 on Olivo so that is where it comes from.We need offense or we lose 100+ games again and that would not be good.He would be fine in LF.Granted we have a very big outfield,but it is much easier to play than right? |
| 35. By: rjfrik on 12-13-2010 14:06:39 Shortstop why you would want to replace Josh Wilson with Jack Wilson is beyond me. Why would you wish this on your team. Jack is one of the premier defensive SS in the game. Josh is a AAAA player. Just weird. |
| 36. By: slamcactus on 12-13-2010 14:17:38 "Nobody on here knows for sure the amount they have to spend.If they stay at 91 mil then it should be around 15." The team still needs to work out deals with the players they offered contracts to, or take them to arbitration. If they keep Aardsma, he'll get about $4 million. League will get around $2.5 most likely, Ryan will get somewhere between $1-1.5million, and Vargas should get $1.5-$2 million or something in that neighborhood. That leaves the team with a couple million left. If Aardsma is dealt, then they've got some flexibility, but if not you're looking at low-impact moves for the rest of the offseason. There's always the chance we see some moves that ship salary out, too. Figgins is one guy who could get moved to clear some salary room. |
| 37. By: shortstop9 on 12-13-2010 15:31:32 Jack Wilson is one of the premier defensive SS? Ryan is a much better defensive SS and all I am saying is Josh is probably better than Jack at 2B.Use Jack as the defensive replacement if he is so great.He may stay healthy that way and we keep his crappy bat out of the lineup.How many times did he fail to even lay down a sac bunt -he sucks. |
| 38. By: short on 12-13-2010 15:35:13 Have you heard or seen anything coming from the M's that might telegraph what their disposition on Lueke might be? Are they shopping him? If not I'd have to think they plan on trying to roll him onto the roster next season. |
| 39. By: slamcactus on 12-13-2010 16:18:53 Jack Wilson, when healthy, is a significantly better defender than Josh Wilson. There's no credible argument to the contrary. He's also a better hitter. If your plan is for Josh Wilson to start a majority of games out of the gate, it's not a good plan. Nothing in his track record suggests he's good enough to be a major league regular. |
| 40. By: Edman on 12-13-2010 17:02:16 Shortstop, prehaps you should return from the island of Perception before you make comments. Ryan is not a much better shortstop than Jack Wilson, in this or any other world you'd like to create. They may be virtual equivalents, but Jack is one of the very best defensive shortstops in the game. Stop making stuff up, please. You want to keep Jack's crappy bat out of the lineup, but you're willing to add Ryan's crappy bat? Neither are offensive power houses. Ryan is as close to a Jack Wilson twin as you can get, with the exception of more speed. You make statements like these, expect to be challenged. |
| 41. By: shortstop9 on 12-13-2010 17:16:39 Edman-let me ask you something:did you ever play baseball?if so what level did you get to? |
| 42. By: slamcactus on 12-13-2010 17:23:40 "Ryan is not a much better shortstop than Jack Wilson, in this or any other world you'd like to create." Both UZR and the Fans' Scouting Report actually disagree with you, Edman. Wilson's been all over the place according to advanced defensive metrics, but both UZR and the fans liked him a lot less in 2010. Ryan's pretty universally considered an elite defensive SS. He's probably the better option there, but you need to play Wilson at SS if you want to have a prayer of moving him at the deadline next year. |
| 43. By: short on 12-13-2010 18:06:45 The argument about which SS is better will be moot after game ten in which Jack Wilson reaches for a cup of Gatorade in the dugout and comes up with a lateral strain and is out for a month. Ideally our infield will either be Jack Wilson at SS and Ryan at 2B, or (the healthier of) Wilson or Ryan at SS and Ackley at 2B. If both are healthy you probably play Wilson as the veteran player, with Ryan on the bench. But Ryan will spell Wilson once or twice a week in that case too. |
| 44. By: rotoenquire on 12-14-2010 17:11:00 This is a True rebuild year. No big splash in the F/A market or trade front. Jackie Z is doing cost effective moves with players who can be dealt later in the year. M. Olivo If Moore pans out or someone is desperate for a catcher at mid season. Going to be delt. B. Ryan Another guy to move at mid season when Ackley is ready to play full time. J. Cust HR guy brought in to fill the DH role and can be moved as well if someone needs a bat with pop. Jack will add more pieces and depth in the minors. Look for next year to be the big F/A push for the M's to add the 2-3 guys they will need ot add to all this young talent. |
| 45. By: slamcactus on 12-15-2010 15:46:49 I don't think Ryan's a candidate to move mid-season. He's under control for 3 years, he's cheap, and the Ms don't have an obvious SS candidate for 2012. Unless he absolutely tanks I think he's around at least two years, maybe all 3 if Franklin's development has a hiccup. |
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