| By Adam Staloch |  | By 08-01-2011 |
Game Video on Trayvon
Twenty-three year old outfielder Trayvon Robinson will make his debut in the Seattle Mariners organization Monday at Cheney Stadium, and the switch-hitter took some batting practice and shagged a few fly balls before the game.
The PI contingent was in attendance and I snagged some video. It's not cage-side, as the Rainiers have a new regulation against media standing against the batting cage, but the video at least gives you an idea of what the player is like physically and somewhat athletically.
As Jason A. Churchill tweeted earlier, Robinson is in the starting lineup, playing center field and batting sixth. He'll wear No. 24, though that will be short-lived once he gets the nod to the big leagues.
Couple of notes from Churchill before we get to the video:
Chance Ruffin, likely to be the player to be named later in the trade with the Detroit Tigers -- a conclusion came to by process of elimination through conversations I have had with sources not employed by any club -- is a fastball-slider reliever who sits 92-95 mph with the heater, which is up a tick or two from his days at Texas where he generally maxed out at 93 and pitched at 89-92. There is also more movement now, including some sink, and he's touched 96. The slider is showing at 82-85 mph and looks like a potential out pitch for him.
Ruffin is tough when he keeps the fastball down, and there are still scouts that haven't ruled out a starting role, at which time he could bring back a low-to-mid 70s curveball. He's not a finished product but he's ready for the big leagues.
As scouts told me Sunday, Robinson's swing is more sound from the right side though he has plus bat speed from both sides of the plate as seen Monday in batting practice. He drives the ball well to left-center field as a lefty, too, something he'll need to continue to do to hit for average.
Click full story to see the video.
robinson-video,-plus-notes
Comments
The following 104 comment(s) for this article are shown below:
| 1. By: masonb on 08-01-2011 23:58:49 So it is Ruffin? No chance at Castellanos, Smyly or Brantley? |
| 2. By: Lonnie on 08-02-2011 00:58:40 I think that there is no way that it will be Castellanos, the Red Sox are banking on him taking over at 3rd in the near future. I like the idea of taking Ruffin, but I won't be upset if it is Smyly. Brantly sounds interesting, but I think that in terms of pure talent level Ruffin and Smyly carry more value. Lonnie |
| 3. By: dawgncarolina on 08-02-2011 01:27:33 Agreed there's no chance it's going to be Castellanos, Lonnie, but he's Tiger property, not Red Sox |
| 4. By: rjfrik on 08-02-2011 01:39:35 Well Ruffin was my number 2 pick behind Castellanos. He's a great pick up and will be our closer of the future in my opinion. I think he will give us the option to trade League at the deadline next year if need be. Makes the trade a win for the M's. |
| 5. By: Jason A. Churchill on 08-02-2011 02:45:39 Like I said on Twitter, it is NOT Castellanos. I have been told it's Ruffin by two sources -- one in Detroit. I know it's not Castellanos, however. Brantly may turn out to be more valuable than all of the above, inclluding Castellanos. Catcher, above average hit tool, plus arm. But his footwork and receiving needed work out of college. But it doesn't matter, it's not him, either. Ruffin may or may not be a closer, but the M's also have Lueke, Cortes and, in my opinion, the best bet to be the closer of the future as far as in-house options are concerned, Stephen Pryor. |
| 6. By: Edman on 08-02-2011 13:12:59 This offseason should be interesting. Jack is going to have some payroll flexability and some chips in the minor league system to trade or move up if he trades someone off the 25 man roster. However, I do not expect him to go crazy with Free Agent signings. I would think that 2012 is the year he starts to build the foundation for 2013 and beyond. It may not appear to many who aren't Mariner fans that there is progress, but the farm system is becoming fertile after many years of neglect. |
| 7. By: Edman on 08-02-2011 13:14:51 Also, while you mention Pryor. What went wrong with him early in the season. He appears to have things corrected. But, he got off to a miserable start. |
| 8. By: skyway park on 08-02-2011 13:20:43 Off topic here but ESPN has a write up on Carter Capps sounds like he is pretty good, hope we get him signed. |
| 9. By: Jerry on 08-02-2011 14:15:29 I agree with Edman. I like what the team is doing. I don't think we added any elite prospects this year, but the club has added a lot of depth. Good drafts, plus trades, have put the club in a good spot going forward. The one thing that is so frustrating about this team now is how bad we are at several positions. We have gotten sub-650 OPS production from C, 3B, SS, all 3 OF positions, and (amazingly) DH. The best way to avoid that level of suck is by building up a bit of depth. With some strong drafts and good trades like last week, I feel like the organization is putting itself in a good position to get league-average production from more spots in the lineup. League average production may not sound like a lofty goal, but with the M's strong run production, and emerging guys like Smoak and Ackley, that could be enough to make them an interesting club. It would certainly be a much better than this train wreck. |
| 10. By: Jerry on 08-02-2011 14:35:55 One thing to build on the above, I do think they should be open to making a big splash in free agency, if the right player is available for the right price. Since the next free agent class isn't that impressive, they could also look to pick up a big contract player via trade. As I mentioned above, the M's are building depth that should result in more solid starters on the roster in the next year. They will need to supplement that, though. I wouldn't mind seeing them throw down some money for a legit stud or two. If they can get cheap production from the farm system at several positions, it will leave them some money to spend. After next year, our only big contracts will be Felix, Figgins, and Guti. They can afford to bring in a good player or two. Adding a star hitter wouldn't be a bad idea. Prince Fielder is the only obvious guy who meets that description in the next free agent class, although Grady Sizemore (if his options isn't picked up) could be a worthwhile risk too. If they could swing a trade for someone like David Wright or Chase Headley, that would be perfect. At some point, the rebuild has to end and this club will need to shift gears and show everyone that they are committed to winning. |
| 11. By: jgstecker on 08-02-2011 16:24:39 I think the rebuilding phase is nearly over. There's enough young talent across the board in AA or higher to shake out a very decent roster. The latest trades gave us depth at trouble spots like LF and 3B. I expect 2012 to be the last year of sifting through youngsters to find out what needs they have to fill with established vets. The M's are looking at a 2013 payroll obligation of $35 million (Felix, Gutierrez, and Figgins), with very few arbitration cases (the very expendable Vargas and Brendan Ryan and a very cheap Shawn Kelley). Everyone else in the organization will be making league minimum. Even factoring in the inevitable Ichiro extension, that's a ton of free money to throw at holes not filled by this current crop of prospects. In the meantime, I expect the club won't be making any moves that might negatively impact 2013 and beyond. That doesn't mean they won't be aggressive, big time players in the market this offseason. Some of the holes of that 2013 squad are self-evident already and if they can be addressed early, that'd be great. That's why I won't be surprised to see Seattle linked to Prince Fielder to the end. They need a DH and they need a consistent force in the middle of the lineup. That's not coming from anyone currently in the organization and it isn't going to come cheap. |
| 12. By: VikingArthur on 08-02-2011 16:51:21 I throw up a little bit every time I hear Prince Fielder and Mariners in the same sentence. He is a fat toad who makes Mo Vaughn look like a fitness model. Any team who signs him to a 5+ year deal deserves to sit in last place for wasting 18+ million a year on that guy. Secondly.. there is NO chance we sign him. One... he is going to want 5-7 yrs at 18-22 mil a year. Will he get it? Perhaps but the team will rue the day. I predict the California (Yes I know... I refuse to call them "LA") Angels sign him. Or maybe the Cubs. For 2012 I can live with a stopgap league average 3b and Wells/Carp/Halman in LF. If we spend big in FA market it should be on a 3b or CF (not sure how many will be available). |
| 13. By: baseballfan on 08-02-2011 17:14:43 I'm happy that posters are so positive about the Mariners and while I'm happy with the job that Z has done - I look up and see Texas not only having the best ML talent but also the best farm system in the division and spending money in the IFA to improve - they could dominate this division for the rest of this decade. VikingArthur, I'm really disappointed - do you so lack the intellectual capacity to express yourself that you have to refer to another person as a "fat toad" - Yes,Prince is overweight and I against Seattle signing him but why not just say that instead of such demeaning and hurtful language? |
| 14. By: VikingArthur on 08-02-2011 17:29:55 @13 Calling my intellectual capacity into question for calling Fielder "fat toad" is absurd. His fitness (or lack thereof) is a big reason why signing him would be asinine. I suppose we should talk about rainbows and unicorns rather than discuss reality. Demeaning and hurtful? Ha, ha... wow, that is classic. Societal emasculation is running amok even amongst hardcore sports fans... sad. Now.. back to baseball talk. Texas is definitely going for broke, I can respect that. They sure are trading their system away in the last two years. We shall see if their remaining prospects are up to the task. |
| 15. By: rjfrik on 08-02-2011 18:48:00 Jason, When can we expect an updated top 30? After the signing deadline in mid August? Curious where the new guys fit in. |
| 16. By: Edman on 08-02-2011 19:39:38 Actually, baseballman, I'm happy with what the Rangers are doing. They're spending money like they can print it. They have been depleting their farm system in an effort to add pieces they don't really need. It all helps Seattle in the end. The money they have spent on International FA's is insane. Considing that few pan out as major leaguers, let them over-invest. Eventually, they're going to tie their hands with bad debt. I can't blame them for going for it, but it's got a cost that can hamper the future. |
| 17. By: DMac33 on 08-02-2011 19:48:25 I'm sorry, but some of you (i.e. VikingArthur) need to get past the whole "Prince Fielder is a fat toad" line of thinking. Care to explain to me where Prince's "not athletic ability" has hindered him in the past? Has he spent time on the DL? Nope ... since being a regular in 2006, he's played AT LEAST 157 games in every season. He's on pace to play 162 games this year. Ignoring his rookie season, his OPS has never been less than .871 and his slugging % has only been under .500 once (last year). So the two questions that I have for you would be: 1) Where in Prince Fielder's performance are there signs that his "lack of fitness" is impacting his performance? 2) Have you ever considered that some people have larger body types than others and sometimes that isn't an indication of someone having a lack of fitness? Also, I'm not entirely sure why everybody's convinced that if the Mariners go after Prince Fielder that he just turns into a DH here. While I'm not advocating giving up on Justin Smoak, let's not just ignore the fact that Smoak is hitting just .222 with a .708 OPS. There's a huge difference between what Fielder is right now and what Smoak is ... and if you have the chance to make that kind of upgrade, Smoak does not appear to be good enough to provide the kind of pause to making the upgrade. |
| 18. By: DMac33 on 08-02-2011 19:53:09 Edman, That's all well and fine except for the fact that the DFW market is one of the biggest in the nation. Now that the Rangers have captured the interest of fans in the market, their ability to act more like a big market club is showing. They are giving a textbook example of how to operate as a big market team ... use the minor leagues to support the roster and utilize future resources (which are replenished with continued good drafts and development) to upgrade the current major league roster. |
| 19. By: dewey on 08-02-2011 20:58:36 #18 DMac dont worry every team who is winning and spending money is insane to Edman and the Mariners our great even that we have owned last place two straight years! The minor leagues our hear to feed the major league clubs and thats how winning clubs have done it for along time.The good clubs try and add one young player our pitcher a year.I have a question why Whilhelson today? Why dont they give C.Jiminez a chance ? We our short leftys and Tom hasnt pitched very well in 2A? I guess all of the guys that werent brought in here by Jacks group cant help them. |
| 20. By: baseballman on 08-02-2011 21:49:02 I don't really care what Texas is doing. Just as long as the Ms keep up what they're doing and Jack keeps it all up, we will be good in a short time. Just keep giving Jack the time and resources and that's all I really care about. |
| 21. By: VikingArthur on 08-02-2011 22:19:15 DMac.. I have a serious question for you.... If you were the GM of the Seattle Mariners would you sign Prince Fielder for 6 years 110 million? I know I would not SNIFF at that contract. No way. Why? He has the "fall apart at 33" body type. I would not sign Fielder for 5 years and 75 million if I were the GM of the Ms. He will be DEAD weight in 2-3 years....an albatross. |
| 22. By: baseballman on 08-02-2011 22:20:55 Cool for viking for thinking he can predict the future! |
| 23. By: VikingArthur on 08-02-2011 22:22:51 To piggyback on my last post... I am guessing that some of the people who would like to go after Fielder are the same people who were yelling and screaming about signing Jason Bay. Develop the guys from within and make trades for bats... don't spend 15-20% of your budget on ANYONE (especially considering we already have that 15-20% guy in RF). |
| 24. By: Jon O on 08-02-2011 22:24:22 Changing subjects... after watching Kennedy tonight and pondering 3B future, who would you like the M's to go after? Stay in-house - Seager, F. Martinez (year or 2), Vinnie Cat (if he can stick at 3B) or be aggressive a go after David Wright ($$$), Gordon Beckham ($$) or Headley ($). Just curious what others think. |
| 25. By: rotoenquire on 08-02-2011 22:45:24 realistically looking at the free agent class. I do not see anyone that could be an impact starter. I do see some good back ups available. K. Shoppach C A. Hill 2B maybe to play Third if he would move positions. E. Jackson SP A. Wainwright SP R. Harden SP P. Maholm SP M. Owens RP J. Zumuya RP All can be had a decent price and if have good season and M's are still struggling can be decent trade bait.. I do like the A. Hill idea to Thirdbase... |
| 26. By: gwangung on 08-02-2011 22:53:34 Cool for viking for thinking he can predict the future! I thought there was some studies that did some work with this... |
| 27. By: DMac33 on 08-02-2011 23:16:37 RE: Post #25 ... Why would you want to give time to guys for potential trade bait? You sign guys because they are a missing piece to your formula. The only guys on your list that have any kind of interest to me would be Jackson and Wainwright. Wainwright should cost to much for a team that you can argue is 2 years away from having a #1 and #1b in their rotation. |
| 28. By: DMac33 on 08-02-2011 23:22:42 Viking ... I don't have time at the moment to go into detail for my response, but there are a number of factors that I'd consider if I was looking at Prince Fielder. While I think the numbers that you put out there I think will end up being below market value, I would not hesitate to sign Prince to that contract if I was in the market as a contender starting on Day 1 of the contract. If I felt that my ETA to being a contender was say 2 years away, then I think I'd be looking at adding that piece closer to when I would be a contender. Thus, in the Mariners position, I think I'd error on the side of not signing him because I don't see the reason in tying up the money in a high priced player when I'm lacking pieces elsewhere to be a 90-win caliber team. But if I was looking at a 85+ win team, then yeah, I'd be in the market to add Prince as a piece to get me over the hump. And FYI, I look at contracts for high impact players differently than most people do ... particularly the back end of the contract. |
| 29. By: StandinPat on 08-02-2011 23:32:49 "At some point, the rebuild has to end and this club will need to shift gears and show everyone that they are committed to winning." When exactly did the "rebuild" begin? Seems like the MO of the Front Office has been to re-tool on the fly, which has delayed the process greatly. Either way, it's not like any of the current moves scream "rebuild" as it stands. Jack's been moving pieces to try and improve the big league club, not selling off any and all assets just to get prospects far away from the majors. "He has the "fall apart at 33" body type. I would not sign Fielder for 5 years and 75 million if I were the GM of the Ms. He will be DEAD weight in 2-3 years....an albatross" You do realize a 5 year contract would expire before Prince turns 33, and in 2 or 3 years he'd be 29 or 30 respectively right? |
| 30. By: rotoenquire on 08-02-2011 23:47:49 Wainwright coming off of Tommy John is not going to cost a ton. I have noticed JakZ has done a lot of moves that are miutli sided. They can help the team and can if the players do not work out they can be moved. But if the team falters and they are playing well can be a potential for prospects for the future. Zumuya, Wainwirght fit that bill best. I like what Hill and Owens could add, even if Hill may cost a bit to much. Then again he would be cheaper than Fielder with a shorter contract and could be decent at 3rd. The added pop would be a nice add... |
| 31. By: aerichner on 08-03-2011 00:20:44 Wainwright is NOT a free agent unless the Cards decline the team option. They are expected to pick it up even with Wainwright coming off of surgery. If you mean TRADE FOR the guy, I dont see why any team would trade for a guy coming off of that type of surgery. IF he's released, sure, take a chance...but right now, that's not an option. If David Ortiz does not resign with the Red Sox, he surely would look to play for a contender BUT it's something worth looking into. Instead of doling out 20 million per year on a long term contract for Prince, this could be a legit rout on a 2 year deal for half the price of Prince. Just sayin... |
| 32. By: dawgncarolina on 08-03-2011 00:34:25 I don't have time to get into a Tequila/DMac discussion, but count me in with Arthur. Given what he'll command in dollars and years, no way I'm touching Fielder. |
| 33. By: DMac33 on 08-03-2011 03:09:25 As I mentioned earlier, I definitely look at contracts for elite level players differently than others do. Ultimately, you have to have a few of these kinds of players on your roster if you want to win at the highest level. Yes, there is no doubt that there may be terms in the contract that at some point make the contract a tough sell. But the reality is that the terms of those contracts are consistent with what the market will pay. It's really simple, if you want those players, that's what the market will pay. You can either play in the market or not. If you don't, there's a good chance that you won't win at the highest level. Now, there's no guarantee that the contract will turn bad at some point. But if it does turn bad, then that's a "sunk investment" that you have to undertake to take a run at championships. I'll worry about what happens if the player underperforms when that becomes an issue. And this isn't an issue just with signing free agents on the open market. This is also an issue when it comes to keeping your own top players and keeping them away from free agency. So given that the Mariners aren't in a position to be a championship caliber club until 2013 at the earliest, I'd pass on Prince Fielder. But if I was a team that was a championship contender that needed a big time middle of the order bat (for example the San Francisco Giants), I'd worry about the next few years and maximizing my opportunities to win more titles. Winning titles is a greater priority than being concerned about whether he ends up tailing off in years 5, 6 or 7 of his contract. |
| 34. By: Edman on 08-03-2011 04:05:01 DMac, I'm a bit confused. If you sign Fielder to say a five year contract, wouldn't he still be in Seattle? It's all about strategy. If you feel Fielder could be an important part of 2013, and you choose to spend the money, it's realistically the only time you're going to get a shot at him. And, it who projects to be available before the 2013 season. If there isn't a big power hitter projected as a free agent, you have to act now. It's not just as simple as saying you don't want to sign free agents until you're ready to compete. Sometimes you have to plan ahead. I have no opinion on Fielder. Moves made in 2012 can and should be expected to help in 2013 and beyond. |
| 35. By: bohawk on 08-03-2011 06:33:05 I'm surprised that only Viking seems to be sharing the concerns over Fielder's weight and the possibility that he will become dead weight during the latter years of his massive contract, say when he is 32 in 5 years. If I were the GM, would I want Fielder on my team? Absolutely. Would I want him at a long term, $20 million-ish contract? Hell no. |
| 36. By: KingFelix on 08-03-2011 08:37:52 We will have to overpay to get Fielder but I think it would be worth it to have a bat in the lineup that scares pitchers. It will help the development of Ackley and Smoak. We have to get some bats to turn this ship around. |
| 37. By: Jerry on 08-03-2011 09:46:28 I do think the "old player skills" issue is a valid one with Fielder. But you also have to look at individual players on a case by case basis. I think too many people view Mo Vaughn as the prototype for fat guy careers, and I'm not sure that's fair. Fielder may be fat, but he's actually a pretty good athlete. And I think he has far fewer health risks than someone like Jose Reyes, who will likely command a similar contract. Reyes has a skill set that tends to age well, but he's been inconsistent his whole career and missed a lot of time with injuries. I think he's far more risky than Fielder. The fact is, Fielder has been an incredibly consistent player, and, at age 27, probably still has a lot of good baseball left in him. And if you sign him for 6 years, and get 5 solid seasons out of him, that's a pretty good value. Especially since he seems to be still getting better. Obviously, a lot would depend on the contract. If it would cost $20+ mil/year to sign him, that's questionable. But lets keep things in perspective. The M's are paying Ichiro $18 mil/year. If Fielder only costs a few mil/year more, that's still a solid value. The biggest issue with Fielder, IMO, is positional value. I'm not sure its wise to pay a guy top money if he provides no value on defense. It might be smarter to just lock up Pineda and Ackley, and look for more value signings in free agency. |
| 38. By: Jerry on 08-03-2011 09:57:50 One player who I think could be a really great risk to take is Grady Sizemore. His contract includes an $8.5 mil option for 2012, but I doubt that the Indians will exercise it. They have a $50 mil payroll, and having a guy with injury problems eating up 20% of the payroll is a bad deal for them. Sizemore likely won't be back until September, so this season is pretty much a bust for him. But when he's healthy, he's among the best players in baseball. He draws walks, is a legit 30/30 guy, and plays plus defense. And he also has local ties, is popular with fans, and would help sell tickets. Sizemore is likely to be available, and, due to the injury concerns, won't be able to command a huge contract. If the M's could bring him in, he could be a good low-risk, high-reward signing. |
| 39. By: baseballfan on 08-03-2011 10:25:36 First off , if Sizemore is healthy, the Indians will definitely pick up his option - they just mortgaged their future for Jimenez, so I think they believe their time is the next few years - if they pass on sizemore that's a major red flag - even if he's available I doubt sizemore comes to Seattle - Pitchers looking to re-establish themselves come to Seattle/San Diego not hitters unless they have no choice. |
| 40. By: Edman on 08-03-2011 10:48:50 Grady Sizemore makes Erik Bedard look like an ironman. What's the facination? I understand his potential, but he just can't stay healthy. If you get him fairly cheap, fine. If not, it's a pass for me. |
| 41. By: VikingArthur on 08-03-2011 11:13:44 There are two other factors in the Fielder thing... 1. He is going to want more than 5 years... I am guessing that he'll be looking for 7 and get 6. (I see an opt out in 2-3 years as well just in case he goes crazy offensively). 2. He is going to think about his next contract in his mid 30s... playing in Seattle is not ideal to make your statistics look better to leverage more $$. 3. He may want to win... Seattle doesn't offer that at this point. We would have to overpay (which is especially obnoxious when you consider the market value will be 17-22 mil)... I would not sign Fielder to Jason Werth money... and he will get a lot more than that. I think he'll get 6-7 yrs and 140-170 mil. That contract (combined with the Area 51 albatross and inevitable overpriced extension) would sink our franchise for a decade. No dice. |
| 42. By: VikingArthur on 08-03-2011 11:14:55 HA, HA...three other factors! |
| 43. By: baseballman on 08-03-2011 11:32:22 Viking what's with your obsession with the term albatross? Also calling Ichiro that is beyond stupid. |
| 44. By: Edman on 08-03-2011 11:55:21 Word of warning to MLB Rumors users. I noticed a headline that stated that Seattle WILL receive Ruffin as the forth player in the Fister deal. I was a bit stunned, since nothing official can be announce until a year after he signed. As a read further, I found that it was referring back to this posting by Jason. I have no problem with that, but Jason actually stated that it's "likely". So be careful of headlines and read further. They typically try to look factual in what they report, and can misrepresent the writer's intent. |
| 45. By: VikingArthur on 08-03-2011 13:16:35 @43 Ichiro is one of the single most overrated players in the HISTORY of baseball. Over the last 3-4 years he has been a somewhat decent leadoff guy and a decent RF... he hasn't been a superstar in years despite what ESPN or team propaganda tells you. Are you really debating that at this point (and arguably through most of his career here) Ichiro's contract is not dead weight? Don't go with the "people come to see him" argument, I don't buy it. People come to see winning or at the very least entertaining baseball. Just for you I will drop the use of the "a-word" for another a-word...ANCHOR. Ichiro's contract is an anchor, period. |
| 46. By: dawgncarolina on 08-03-2011 13:21:30 I am completely with Arthur about Fielder. Totally disagree about Ichiro. Ichiro is having a terrible year. He has not been overrated before that, let alone an anchor. |
| 47. By: baseballman on 08-03-2011 13:25:25 Umm...wow...I don't even know what to say. Other than that was the the dumbest thing I've read here in quite some time. The most overrated player in the history of baseball? Yeah, no real response is really needed because...never mind. |
| 48. By: Edman on 08-03-2011 13:29:01 ESPN propaganda? Yes, we're all familiar with their obvious west coast bias. You can disagree all you want, but it doesn't make it in anyway factual. dawg and I don't often agree, but he's spot on. Ichiro has done his job, except for this year. He's not responsible for those behind him. His job is to get on base, and he's done that. |
| 49. By: rjfrik on 08-03-2011 13:40:32 Ichiro means more to this team then you lead on. He has one more year on a contract that paid him what he was worth during his prime years. It was a fair contract at the time. He will be resigned for far less in 2013 and it will reflect what his value is now. You shouldn't worry about his contract in the future. Just to put his salary in perspective. Ichiro, when is current contract expires after the 2012 season, will have earned 142.4 million dollars with the Seattle Mariners. Ichiro's value to the team with just his play on the diamond, excluding what he does next year, is worth 348 million dollars as of today. The Mariners have made over 200 million dollars on Ichiro with just the value of his play in the field. I'm sure they have made many more 100's of millions on him outside of baseball. Ichiro has/is/will be a very wise investment. |
| 50. By: maqman on 08-03-2011 13:43:36 Fielder would in my opinion turn into an albatross contract. Boras will ask for 8 to 10 years and probably get 7 or 8 years. He wants and will get $20MM or more AAV. Say he settles for just $20MM and just 7 years so he's due just $140 MM. How will he age? Look at his father Cecil Fielder. He could whack dingers out of sight in Detroit but he didn't produce a WAR over 2.2 after he was 30 years old. Prince might degrade slower but he will degrade. Z's strength is scouting and trading, not signing huge free agent contracts - or I sure as hell hope so! |
| 51. By: dawgncarolina on 08-03-2011 14:03:24 Frik, where are you getting his on field value as anything approaching $348 million? If you use his Fangraphs WAR he's been worth 52.1 wins, and if you set the value of a win on the open market at $5 million you get $260.5 million, which is still quite significant, but, nowhere near your figure. Of course, if you narrow it down to just the current contract it's been just about right in line with his production, with the possibility that if his production doesn't bounce back it turns into a bad deal for next season. Even in that event, it's only going to be $15 to $20 million shy of his production over the life of the deal, and we're talking worst case scenario. |
| 52. By: VikingArthur on 08-03-2011 14:40:27 You guys can try to convince someone else of Ichiro's value as a player, I am not biting. Ichiro is 28th amongst active players in OB% in the same company with other luminaries like Brad Hawpe, Jason Bay, Pat Burrell. He WAS a great player in his first four or five years. He has been good after that. I am not taking anything away from the guy but his skill set is overrated. Even in 2009 when he hit .352 his OB% was .386..that is why he scored 88 runs. He stole 26 bases that year which we all know is much less than he could have stolen. A mid .700s OPS guy with 25-40 steals is NOT worth 18 million. If we were a team with a 150-200 million payroll...his salary over the last 5 years would have been fine. We are not. We are a 90-120 million payroll team...and his massive chunk is not justified in our franchise's case. You cannot pay a leadoff hitter 20% of your team's salary unless his name is Rickey Henderson. You guys can talk about WAR and each win being worth $5 million all you'd like. Was Frankin Gutierrez worth $27 million in 2009 or $15 million last year? Laughable. |
| 53. By: Edman on 08-03-2011 14:46:35 Viking, I would like to thank you for presenting opintions that make me less controversial than you. |
| 54. By: safecochatter on 08-03-2011 15:10:07 if you watched cecil fielder come into the league. you'd think twice about prince. as soon as cecil got a "big" contract,his weight took off even more..so it's very possible prince isn't done "growing". just something to consider when spending millions of dollars.. |
| 55. By: DMac33 on 08-03-2011 15:23:18 Edman, I understand your points. What I'm getting at is that you have to look at the bigger picture. You are right, if your main target is Prince Fielder, then this is your one and only time to be able to get out on the market to get him. But it is also important to consider what other potential free agents are out there not only this year but also in future years. It is important to look at what positions of need you may have. And obviously timing is important. I think a guy like Fielder would be a tough sell to get to come to Safeco since this isn't a team that is looking like it will win until 2013 at the earliest with no certainty of winning on the horizon. Would I kick the tires on Prince? Absolutely. But if I was in Jackie Z's shoes, I'm not entirely sure I'd take the position of Prince or bust. |
| 56. By: baseballman on 08-03-2011 16:04:08 I don't think waiting to acquire major league just because you don't think you will competing is a good idea. FOR EXAMPLE (I say example because will jump on the player I'm about to use even though I am not advocating signing him): the Ms should sign Prince Fielder if they feel he makes them a better team in this off season opposed to waiting until the off season of 2012. Why try to fill every single hole in your club in one off season? I doesn't work like that. Signing and trading for major league talent now, makes you competitive in 2012 and guess what else? Those players will still be here in 2013 and beyond! I don't understand the notion of throwing away seasons because some fans don't think we are a WS caliber team yet. It's a process. |
| 57. By: DMac33 on 08-03-2011 16:35:22 I'm not advocating that you just wait and make your signings all in one offseason. What I am saying is that I don't think you build a club through free agency ... I think you use free agency as a missing piece here and there. If you think that Prince Fielder is one of those few missing pieces to the puzzle, then I think that it would be wise to sign him. Particularly if you think that he fits in with what you are trying to build and you don't have ready made answers at the position. But what I'm not for is throwing money at a problem to take a team from say a 65 win team to a 75 win team. At that point, you are far more than an asset here or there from winning. The important thing at that point is to accumulate assets. The Mariners are in a position right now of having the opportunity to provide ABs and Innings to young players to give the opportunity to sink or swim. Let's give them the chance. Should the Mariners be happy with Brendan Ryan going forward at SS? They clearly are in need of an upgrade at 3B. They appear to have added a number of different options in the OF. I'd worry about making sure to get players ready on the left side of the infield if I was in charge of the Mariners ... but that's just me. |
| 58. By: VikingArthur on 08-03-2011 17:03:25 Let's say we sign Fielder for $20 million a year. Great..we have a 1b/DH who has a .900 OPS and 100 RBIs but it forces Carp or Smoak out of the permanent mix. Is the offensive upgrade from Carp to Fielder worth $20 million? Or even $15 million. I say no way. Carp will have a .800 OPS next year as the DH if we just get out of the way and give him the position permanently. It would not shock me to see him have a .850 OPS. If we are going to break the bank for a player he NEEDS to be a LF/CF/3B NOT a 1b/DH. If I were Jack.. I'd shop any of the young pitchers and Franklin for a 3b or CF. We have the rest of the year to decide what we think about Wells, I think he is a keeper considering cost. |
| 59. By: rjfrik on 08-03-2011 18:49:42 Dawg, I computed that number by using Dollars - WAR, which is right next to the WAR data on fangraphs. It's essentially what the player would make on the open market that year by using his numbers against the rest of the league. To me this paints an accurate picture of player value per season as it takes inflation and other economic aspects into account. |
| 60. By: rjfrik on 08-03-2011 18:53:54 Viking you can discredit analytic sabermetric data all you want but the fact is it is data that holds a lot of value. More and more front offices rely on this data for their decision making process. I tend to agree with what the numbers say. Ichiro is worth the contract and has more then paid for his lifetime contracts with the M's. |
| 61. By: VikingArthur on 08-03-2011 22:27:25 @60 Was Franklin Gutierrez worth $27 million in 2009? Or $15 million last year? If you want to buy into this nebulous $5 mil for 1 WAR... go for it, but stick with it when absurdities like the above come to pass. Wins above replacement has its use in evaluating and comparing players but its ability to value players monetarily is questionable at best and asinine at worst. |
| 62. By: VikingArthur on 08-03-2011 22:47:12 The bottom line is that you Ichiro folks can talk all you want about WAR, fan interest, etc... but the sad truth is that at his best he was not a 18 million dollar a year player. Ichiro is a glorified Kenny Lofton....if you don't believe me, check the stats folks. If you want to believe that Ichiro was EVER worth 18 million a year..be my guest. Rickey Henderson would have been worth that kind of money in today's game...but Ichiro? Not a chance. |
| 63. By: rjfrik on 08-03-2011 23:16:22 Viking, You cannot compare Ichiro to Franky. They are so far apart it's asinine to even put them in the same argument. Franky is the classic case of a young player about to enter his prime having the best year of his life and getting paid a fat contract for it. He has not history of ever producing at the level and no data that could show you that he could repeat that year. It was a fluke year for him and he got paid for it. If you look at all of his MLB years around his career year you would that he averaged a -6.6 runs above average with his bat over five years. That should tell you that Franky can't hit, never could hit and never will hit the baseball to justify that type of contract. But the front office had faith that he could blossom here and they took a gamble. Ichiro had and has a clear history of being a legitimate stud when it comes to hitting. He is a hitting machine with speed and all the data showed you that he will hit and hit and hit. He's had one bad year that is entirely due to a BABIP of .285 his average over his entire big league career is a .353 BABIP, which he had last year, so it's not like he has been on a down ward trend of getting old and not being able to produce. The fact is he is having a fluke year where nothing is dropping, much in the same way Franky had a fluke year where he actually hit the baseball, it happens. Nothing indicates Ichiro is done, his strike out rates are actually down from last year and better then his career average and his walk rates are better then last year and better then his career average. The only difference is that he has been very unlucky. I still expect him to collect 200 hits and finish the year around .300, maybe south of it, but around it. I also suspect next year he has a big bounce back campaign. |
| 64. By: gwangung on 08-03-2011 23:28:33 The bottom line is that you Ichiro folks can talk all you want about WAR, fan interest, etc... but the sad truth is that at his best he was not a 18 million dollar a year player. Um, no. Assertions are not arguments. The sad truth is that you're ignoring an argument and statistics that do not support your argument. You can claim to win any argument if you ignore counter evidence. |
| 65. By: DMac33 on 08-04-2011 01:40:02 Just because more and more front offices use sabermatric data doesn't mean that their usage of such data is correct. The problem with data is that to use it correctly you have to have an inherent understanding of not only its strengths, but also its weaknesses. I do think that you can use data to help have a better understanding of the game and what is and isn't important. However, there is danger to me in looking at correlations between variables when the correlation may not be as strong as they appear. I've played enough sports in my life to realize that there are intangibles that aren't picked up in the stats. One of my degrees is in mathematics. I don't feel comfortable at all in using data to tell me how to play a game that contains an endless number of intangibles that are difficult to quantify. |
| 66. By: dewey on 08-04-2011 03:29:28 I read a article last winter where the Giants and Phillies both dont use Statistical stuff at all.They our the last 2 N.L. teams to win the series and if im not mistaken Philly is allways one of the top defensive teams? Im saying there our alot of ways to skin a cat.. |
| 67. By: VikingArthur on 08-04-2011 10:39:06 @64 Gwang.... again you can parrot all the lines you think you understand about statistical analysis and that is fine. Answer me this ONE question. Has any team ever been remotely successful paying a leadoff hitter 15-20% of their total team payroll? The answer is a resounding no. That is the only statistic that matters in this case. Don't give me the "he's unique" argument. He's not. He is Kenny Lofton. In fact I would have rather had Kenny Lofton in his prime. Why? Oh yeah... he drew a walk more than once a week. Little known fact.. Kenny Lofton and Ichiro have the same career OPB%. OPS? Lofton .792 Ichi .794. Lofton stole significantly more bases, Ichi was a better defender (at a less non-premium position). Given that Lofton hung on too long, it is almost certain that Ich will retire with a lower OPB and OPS then KENNY LOFTON and you guys still drone on talking about how this guy is a legend. Hits do not make you a legend. Get over it. |
| 68. By: baseballman on 08-04-2011 10:52:41 viking, take your own advice and get over. No one cares to debate with you because you dismiss statistics that you don't care about because it's obvious you don't understand them. You have an irrational dislike for Ichiro, that much is evident. I suggest you either read up on statistics that matter or drop the subject all together because until then, any sort of "discussion" with you is pointless because your response to everything is: "I'm right because I say so." |
| 69. By: rjfrik on 08-04-2011 11:44:53 Here here baseballman. The guy has one bad (fluke) season and you are throwing him under the bus. I will have to research your Lofton statement that he was a better base stealer. I don't know if I agree with that statement until I see the evidence in stats. The other thing you don't put in your judgement of Ichiro is the lineup he's had to play with his entire career. If he was with the Sox or Yankees the last decade his numbers would be even better. Think of all the runs and rbi he would have. Plus he would most likely see better pitches because of the lineup behind him. |
| 70. By: dawgncarolina on 08-04-2011 11:49:29 Kenny Lofton is a Hall of Famer in my book so making the case that they're roughly equivalent players does nothing to diminish my admiration for Ichiro. Kenny Lofton was a damn good baseball player. Very underrated. Good comp, actually. The problem is you undervalue both of them considerably. |
| 71. By: maqman on 08-04-2011 13:26:13 A quote from Shannon Drayer's post yesterday. "When we talked to Zduriencik after the trade deadline he stressed that he felt the hitters would almost have to come from within the organization. They have to develop them; they are becoming fewer and harder to obtain through free agency and trade. Teams just flat out do not have access and do not want to give them up." Don't sound like a guy ready to pay nine figures for Fielder to me. |
| 72. By: VikingArthur on 08-04-2011 13:49:27 I know that Kenny Lofton was an awesome leadoff guy and a very good player. I will say that he was better than Ichiro overall. That said... the whole "Ichiro is a legend" thing is partially due to coming from Japan and his whole mystique. Good player but by no means is he a "franchise" player or someone who is a pillar to a successful team. That is my only point and no one has remotely refuted that. We pay him like a franchise player...he is an ancillary talent. Ichiro could NEVER be the best player on a winning team and that is the entire point of what I am saying. |
| 73. By: VikingArthur on 08-04-2011 13:56:14 Baseballman.. you initially didn't like my assessment of Prince Fielder as a "fat toad" and now you are trying to make the case that Ichiro is worth his contract... rather than simply say "You are full of it"...make some statistical case. You won't because you can't. Ichiro is a leadoff hitter, an above average one... not a franchise level talent and that is obvious to everyone but you, Lincoln and Armstrong. |
| 74. By: baseballman on 08-04-2011 14:02:16 viking, I've never said anything to you about Prince Fielder's weight...so I don't really know what you're talking about. Also regarding Ichiro's contract, others have already made very valid arguments and you simply dismissed all of them. I don't need to re-type what others already have because I already know what your response will be. |
| 75. By: Edman on 08-04-2011 14:04:50 Viking, you're so far from the facts, it's actually kind of scary. You are trying to push your personal belief system and presenting it as some form of fact. It's not, and never will be. Ichiro is a franchise player, even with a bad year. Just like Jeter is a franchise player in New York. Ichiro is the face of the organization, along with Felix. You wish to believe he's overrated, fine. However, millions of baseball fans think you're wrong. I guarantee you that outside of Seattle, Ichiro is recognized thoughout the United States and the world. You seem to have some prototype built in your head of what a franchise player is, and you're wrong. It's not any type of player. It's what that player represents to both his team and his community. And really, the whole Japan thing was over with after the 2001 season. There are lots of Japanese players now, he's not a novelty anymore. |
| 76. By: Wes45 on 08-04-2011 14:11:35 I'm an infrequent poster but I feel the urge to chime in. I'm not an Ichiro hater nor I am I one of his bigger fans. Though he's overpaid now, I agree with a previous poster that the contract wasn't outrageous when it was initially signed. Rather than take either a "he sucks" or "he's a deity" stance, I offer the following (hopefully) balanced observations: Pros -His career average of .327 is clearly impressive -His string of 200 hit seasons is unmatched in baseball history which must say something -Other than this year, he has been very good to excellent defender -He's never embarassed himself or the franchise with off-field behavior Cons -While his batting average is high, his OBP is hardly extraordinary. Consequently, he's not the on-base machine that many portray him to be. From his rookie year through LAST year, his OBP rankings were 36th, 28th, 70th, 9th, 70th, 46th, 19th, 58th, 30th and 39th. It's worth noting that OBP isn't hindered by those around him in the line-up. That's all him. If anything, crappy players around him should result in more walks and higher OBP. Insofar as OBP is considered team-centric to "set the table", one could understand why he's perceived as selfish. -He's never been a leader on teams that could have obviously used one. Edgar took others under his wing. Ichiro doesn't operate that way. -His primary offensive weapon--the infield single--is actually more effective when those ahead of him fail to get on base. This is one of the greater conundrums for me--that his personal success is actually aided by the struggles of those ahead of him in the line-up. Clearly, it's not intentional and I'm not blaming him for it but it's nonetheless pretty unique. |
| 77. By: VikingArthur on 08-04-2011 14:20:22 Very good post Wes You guys can think Ichiro is a franchise guy if you'd like. I am wasting my efforts... the brainwashing is deep. Enjoy... |
| 78. By: Edman on 08-04-2011 14:25:11 LMFAO.....yes, Viking, blame it on brainwashing, instead of your own narrowmindedness. Bravo, I say. |
| 79. By: nighthawk180 on 08-04-2011 14:53:37 You know what sounds good right now teriyaki. With all this Ichiro talk i want teriyaki. Chicken is good. On a baseball note Cust was released today and Halman optioned back to AAA. Now AAA has 5 outfielders for 3 spots. Wilson, Peguero, Halman, Robinson, and Pena according to their website. So I guess that Saunders is on his way back up. Good for him. Hopefully the change in his swing can help him succeed somewhere down the line. We have a guy who is mashing AAA (Saunders) and we have Wells, Carp, Guti, and Ichiro. I'd like to see him get more consistent at bats somewhere but not to take away from others. Wells is probably a platoon bat in the long run but he had a solid series against the A's. Guti had some nice hits too. Ichiro isnt going anywhere. Carp is solid little room here. Smoak is out for a little bit with the thumb thing so Carp can play there until he gets back but then what? Anyone's thoughts? |
| 80. By: Wes45 on 08-04-2011 15:16:51 @79. I'm still worried about Saunders propensity for striking out. I think he needs more time down in AAA to work on it. I wouldn't bring him back up until that was improved. Pena and Wilson are just roster fodder.. I'd drop them, if necessary to ensure that Halman, Robinson and Saunders play. Peguero looked hopeless to me when he was up. Pitch recognition to him is defined as swinging at anything he recognizes to be a pitch. |
| 81. By: dewey on 08-04-2011 15:25:17 Yes Ichiro has lost some speed with his feet and his bat but he has not lost the ability to make the Mariners alot of money with jersey/Tshirt sales etc and for me and you we only care if he can play for Howie and Chuck its about the money they have proven that for years.So dont be surprised if the extend him for this reason if they havent proved too you its all about profit by now you havent been paying attention. |
| 82. By: Wes45 on 08-04-2011 15:29:24 Also to clarify my position...I'm not suggesting that Ichiro has always been a bad and/or horribly overrated player. I think he's been amazing at what he does but what he does unfortunately MAY not be incredibly valuable to team wins. Before anybody starts quoting WAR...while I like recent statistical evolutions in evaluating players, I hardly hold WAR to be infallible. I think it's a good early attempt at quantifying overall performance but can hardly be considered perfect. |
| 83. By: nighthawk180 on 08-04-2011 15:32:18 @80, I have the same questions about Saunders and the strike outs. I have looked around and saw that some places are saying that the mariners are bringing up Robinson for Friday's game. I find it hard to believe because i dont see Saunders name on the AA or AAA rosters. I havent checked the M's roster yet but I do see Robinson's name on the AAA roster. Just thought it could be something better to talk about then Ichiro and value. Some people agree to disagree. End of it. |
| 84. By: Wes45 on 08-04-2011 15:36:06 @83. Nice job actually circling back to Robinson which is what this post was intially about :) Well played. I'd like to see Robinson more than Saunders at this point. Saunders still has stuff he clearly needs to work on. Bringing him up to play part time won't help him accomplish that IMO. Robinson could use a taste of the majors to better gauge his areas for improvement. |
| 85. By: dewey on 08-04-2011 15:38:19 I watched Robinson in Tacoma for a couple of days be prepaired for alot of strikeouts man he swings and misses alot. |
| 86. By: Wes45 on 08-04-2011 15:48:23 Geoff Baker is suggesting it's going to be Pena. Speaking of strikeouts... I gotta get tickets up close. I could use some of his fanning to keep me cool on these warm days. |
| 87. By: dawgncarolina on 08-04-2011 16:07:28 "He is an ancillary talent. Ichiro could NEVER be the best player on a winning team and that is the entire point of what I am saying." He was the second best player on a team that won 116 games. I'm pretty sure if you subtracted Bret Boone from the 2001 M's they still would have won at least 105 games. With Ichiro as their best player. Unless you want to argue that 2001 Bret Boone was the greatest player of all time. Otherwise, great point. |
| 88. By: bodhizefa on 08-04-2011 16:53:58 I think an argument about what Ichiro has been is moot. The question is what he will be in the future at this point, and I have some serious doubts given his age and how awful he's looked this year both in the field and at the plate. Can anyone who watches him seriously say they think it's a fluke and that he doesn't LOOK old at this point? I know I can't (and I wish I wasn't saying that). Ichiro has given us some fantastic years, but I think his next big contribution to the Mariners' organization is going to be when his money comes off the payroll and we can use it for someone who will help us win in 2013 and beyond. I think we all have to face the realization that there's a chance Ichiro may be riding the bench by mid-2012 if he's still in as flat a tailspin as he's been all year this season. |
| 89. By: VikingArthur on 08-05-2011 11:22:08 Free Wily!! I say let Saunders rake in AAA until Sept and see if Pena can play at all if given regular ABs. |
| 90. By: rjfrik on 08-05-2011 22:48:20 Dawg, in my opinion Ichiro was by far the best player on that team. Which won the most games in mob history. Ichiro won an MVP, how many people have ever done that? But you know what, he's not a franchise player. Was Tony Gwynn a franchise player? Was Wade Boggs? Was Don Mattingly, Was Robin Yount, Pete Rose? Was Ernie Banks, Joe Morgan? Or Shoeless Joe Jackson, Ty Cobb? All those guys profile similar to Ichiro. Hmm? |
| 91. By: VikingArthur on 08-07-2011 14:20:38 Tony Gwynn and Wade Boggs were NOT franchise level talents. They are HOF level complementary players. Mattingly? Yount? Banks? Morgan? You clearly need to go look at people's numbers. Banks HIT 500+ HOME RUNS...but yeah he "profiles similar to Ichiro". Ha, Ha. Morgan was an offensive monster...not a slappy. Mattingly's numbers are significantly closer (pre-back injury) to Pujols in than Ichiro... jesus...go read a baseball card (or baseballreference of course). Rose is most similar and he was not the best player on those teams (Bench was and it wasn't close). Pete Rose (and Boggs) is the best comp for Ichiro... tons of hits, tons of notoriety and are incredibly overrated by baseball fans who don't understand the game. Franchise Players are those who strike fear in the hearts of opponents, can carry a team for a month on their back, etc... 3-4-5 hitters and aces, the rest are complementary players. Randy Johnson was a franchise player, Griffey was, A-Rod was, Edgar was...Ichiro's impact on the game pales in comparison to any of the above guys. Nice player, nice story...but ultimately a slappy. |
| 92. By: VikingArthur on 08-07-2011 14:22:09 Rickey Henderson was the ONLY franchise changing level talent to be a leadoff man and he was 2x the player Ichiro is or ever was. |
| 93. By: dawgncarolina on 08-07-2011 16:24:24 Moving targets are awesome. You didn't claim he wasn't a "franchise changing talent" (whatever that is). You claimed he was incapable of being the best player on a winning team. Once you were proved wrong you tried to move the goalposts. Classic. |
| 94. By: VikingArthur on 08-08-2011 11:28:56 Ichiro was NOT the best player (Boone was) on the 2001 team that won NOTHING. Keep that in mind of course....they did not even go to the WS. |
| 95. By: rjfrik on 08-08-2011 13:20:33 Ichiro won the MVP for most valuable player in the entire league that year, but your argument is he wasn't even the best player on his own team. How does that work Viking? Seems like you disagree with hundreds of Ichiros peers. Also I referenceed those players for their ability to hit. They all have the same style. Just because Ichiro chose not to hit home runs doesn't mean he can't. He could of been a .290-.310 hitter with 25-35 homers but he chose to be a player who would lead off and hit .315-.340 |
| 96. By: dawgncarolina on 08-08-2011 15:46:00 "Ichiro was NOT the best player (Boone was) on the 2001 team that won NOTHING. Keep that in mind of course....they did not even go to the WS."So now the argument is "Ichiro could never be the best player on a team that wins the World Series", which is miles away from the arguement that "Ichiro could never be the best player on a winning team". Keep moving those goalposts Artie! |
| 97. By: VikingArthur on 08-08-2011 16:02:10 You guys have maintained that Ichiro is worth his contract and is a franchise player. Winning = winning... merely winning a division and then flaming out in the playoffs is NOT winning. He WAS NOT the best player on the 2001 team, look at the numbers, Boone was the real MVP. I suppose Yount was the MVP in 1988 and not Ruben Sierra right? MVP voting is damn near as bad as all-star voting. RJ... if you think Ichiro and Ernie Banks have "the same style of hitting" you are more misguided than I care to correct. If Ichiro "chose" to hit .340 with no power vs. hitting .290-.310 with 25-35 HRs then he should have had his contract terminated for sabotage. The funny thing is that I like him as a player and think he is a good dude. The kowtowing to a guy who has trouble getting a .400 OBP with NO power is the part I am mystified by. Bottom line... Ichiro was NEVER worth 18 million and was never the best player on a winning team. We can acknowledge our fundamental differences in our assessments of what kind of baseball players win games and move along now. |
| 98. By: rjfrik on 08-08-2011 16:27:45 Viking, Numerous posters have posted facts that refute your statements yet you refuse to accept the facts and continue to say absolutes without any facts to back them up. You say Ichiro has never been worth his contract but we have provided proof showing Ichiro has far exceeded his contracts. The Mariners, in fact have made a mint off him as a player, and even more off his merchandiseing, yet you disregard this. Then you claim that he wasn't the best player on his own team, yet there is a stone cold fact that he was the best player in the entire league, an MVP award. You discredit the MVP award and say its worthless and not a measuring tool for who the best player is. Well Viking there are over 100 Hall of Farmers who probably disagree with you. If I go by your logic, Ruth, Cobb, Gehrig, Mantle, Mays, Clemente, Robinson, Bonds, Puhols, ect were not the best players on their teams because their peers voted them the best players in their leagues. What clarifies a person to be the best player on ones team in your opinion? Because you are discrediting the only factual measuring stick that the sport uses. And honestly if you are going to discredit all the facts and the institute of baseball then I'm going to have to discredit your logic because its coming from a thought process void of facts. When thought processes are void of facts it makes them dilusional. By applying some simple math and the process of elimination that would then make you dillusional. Thus your thoughts on Ichiro have no facts supporting them and hold no merit. |
| 99. By: baseballman on 08-08-2011 16:41:48 rj and dawg, your sound arguments along with your valid points and statistics obviously means nothing to viking. You guys won, viking doesn't care about statistics he doesn't understand. He's has an irrational dislike for Ichiro and that is all that matters to him. |
| 100. By: dawgncarolina on 08-08-2011 18:50:31 "You guys have maintained that Ichiro is worth his contract and is a franchise player." I never said he was a franchise player. I think the term is nebulous and useless. I did maintain that a) he has been worth his contract before this season b) your assertion that could not be the best player on a winning team is categorically wrong. Now, you've decide to define WINNING as something different winning 116 games, winning a division and reaching the LCS, which is hilarious. If you want to claim someone couldn't be the best player on a championship team then say that. A winning team is pretty universally defined as a team that wins more than it loses. It's fun to redefine terms whenever you want to. BTW, I never claimed Ichiro was the best player on the 01 team, I clearly stated that he was not. He was, however, the second best player on that team, and that team still would have won well over 100 games without Boone. By anyone but your definition, that's a "winning" team. This version of Ichiro isn't worth $18M a year. On that, we can agree. Otherwise, you're Dave Samson. |
| 101. By: VikingArthur on 08-08-2011 20:12:27 @98 If I go by your logic, Ruth, Cobb, Gehrig, Mantle, Mays, Clemente, Robinson, Bonds, Puhols, ect were not the best players on their teams because their peers voted them the best players in their leagues. By bringing Ichiro into a discussion with the above guys is insulting to the history of baseball. Those guys are some of the best ever. Ichiro is a high priced Kenny Lofton... and the stats clearly illustrate it. I have laid that out and plain and clear English. OBP and OPS literally mirror images... Lofton edge on SBs and positional defense and Ichiro slight edge in overall defensive talent at a less important spot. Stop evoking legends in the discussion of a slappy leadoff hitter who won't walk. |
| 102. By: dawgncarolina on 08-08-2011 21:56:06 "If I go by your logic, Ruth, Cobb, Gehrig, Mantle, Mays, Clemente, Robinson, Bonds, Puhols, ect were not the best players on their teams because their peers voted them the best players in their leagues." I think there's a word missing here. Or else wow. |
| 103. By: VikingArthur on 08-09-2011 01:56:00 That is a cut and paste from 98.... |
| 104. By: dawgncarolina on 08-09-2011 02:29:26 Indeed it was. Quotation marks would have made that easier to understand. This thread makes my head hurt. |
Haven't created a Prospect Insider account yet? Sign up!
|
|
 |
|
|
| Copyright 2010 Prospect Insider | Created by AQ Central Prospect Insider is optimized for Mozilla Firefox and Google Chrome |