| By Adam H. Wong |  | By 12-10-2011 |
The paradigm shift has begun, as the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim inked Albert Pujols to a 10-year, $254 million contract. The largest contract ever awarded to a first baseman started an earthquake among the writers and analysts across the landscape of baseball.It will be a while until the aftershocks subside.
Until the 2012 baseball season begins, fans of teams in the American League West will have to quell their anxiety, as the best hitter of this generation has moved into their backyard. Not only did Los Angeles sign the best free agent hitter on the market, they also signed the best available free agent pitcher in C.J. Wilson to a five-year, $77.5 million contract. The Angels spent more on two players in one day than what was spent over the entirety of the winter meetings.
The signing of Pujols and Wilson is a mixed bag of emotions, but beyond the primary shock and awe, there's more than just a glimmer of hope for Mariners fans down the road.
Age and Depth
In the near future, however, things seem grim. The Halos have strengthened their already stellar rotation, and they added one of the best right-handed bats in the game. Thing is, Anaheim currently doesn't have the system to support success once their already aging lineup ages further. Vernon Wells will be 35 when his contract expires in 2014. Torii Hunter will be 36 going into next season. And at the ripe age of 42, if he makes it that far, Pujols will still be owed a ton of money, and there aren't very many comparable players who've had success playing into their 40's.
Pete Rose, Rickey Henderson, and Carlton Fisk all played into their 40's, and while their primary skill sets remained mostly intact, the larger part of their game diminished. Dan Szymborski projects that Pujols won't hit more than 30 home runs after 2015, and his worth in WAR will plummet to 0.2 in his final contract year. He might be able to be a serviceable player, but a .250/.290/.380 slash line is not worth a $25 million Annual Average Value.
There isn't much depth behind Peter Bourjos, Mark Trumbo and Mike Trout, and all three of those players already have major league experience. As Jason Churchill stated in his latest article, the Angels don't have the farm system to produce major league talent within the next five years, so the Los Angeles franchise is banking heavily on Pujols' future success.
In regards to minor league depth, the Mariners have great depth, particularly with pitching. Earlier in the year, Keith Law ranked Seattle's system 10th best in the majors. The arms and the bats in the farm are household names around Prospect Insider: Taijaun Walker, James Paxton, Danny Hultzen; Nick Franklin, Marcus Littlewood, Francisco Martinez. Law recently spoke on 710 ESPN Seattle and mentioned that Seattle could have the best starting rotation within a couple of years. There's talent coming up through the Mariners' system, and that will be a giant advantage over the Halos in the coming years.
Currently, the baseball community is pointing towards Alex Rodriguez's contract and what he has produced up to this point as an indicator of Pujols' performance as he enters his twilight years. Most conversation deviates towards the fact that once Pujols can't play the field, a $25 million AAV is far and beyond what any DH should get paid. Health is a concern, as 2011 was Pujols' worst season to date. The wrist injury Pujols sustained in mid-June should raise a flag, because if he re-injures his wrist, there will be a noticeable decline in power.
Some have said that Pujols could have been the next Stan Musial. Oh, the legacy that could have been, but never will be. In the end, however, it's probably in the St. Louis Cardinals' best interest that Pujols signed elsewhere. Many have said that his contract might cripple the Angels franchise financially, but without the option to DH him in the National League, the Cardinals are more than likely secretly relieved.
Arms Race
Mariners' fans should delight in the fact that Wilson's contract is $500,000 less than what Felix Hernandez's is. The Halos paid a No. 3, maybe a fringe No. 2, starter what the Mariners paid their bona fide ace.
There isn't much of a shift in regards to what team has the most dominant pitching rotation in the AL West. The Rangers lost their No. 1 in Wilson, but he wasn't much of an ace to begin with. Neftali Feliz may fill that role, but his effectiveness has yet to be proven. If they win the bidding for Yu Darvish's services, their rotation will definitely get a boost, but the core of their rotation should remain largely intact, and should perform sufficiently.
Although the Angels attained a good pitcher in Wilson, he by no means is a game changer. Wilson has only been in a starting rotation for two years, and he has only pitched more than 200 innings since 2010. Durability might be an issue. Hernandez, on the other hand, has been throwing over 200 innings since 2008, so there's no doubt that Wilson's endurance will be tested through the duration of his contract.
Oakland, well -- poor Oakland. Billy Beane is a great GM, but he just doesn't have the funds to keep the talent he finds, like the rest of the AL West. The Athletics don't seem to be in the running to land a starting pitcher since they already have some depth there. With Brett Anderson, 23, and Gio Gonzalez, 25, they have promise on the horizon. That is, if they are able to retain said players. Oakland shipped out young right hander Trevor Cahill yesterday, so we might be seeing the start of the talent recycle.
And the Houston Astros. They thought they were rid of Albert Pujols. They thought wrong.
In a simple summation, both Hernandez and Wilson made their big league debut in 2005. Hernandez has been worth 32.7 fWAR, and Wilson has been worth 13.8 fWAR total since then. Felix Hernandez wins.
Division Dynamic
Truth be told, the thought of adding Pujols to the middle of the Angels' lineup doesn't strike as much fear to my baseball core as I think it should. He is the best hitter in baseball. His career .328 average and .617 slugging percentage lead all active players. It's all the other players around him that lessen that threat. Harold Reynolds postulated that Torii Hunter could hit in front of Pujols. Hunter put up a .262/.336/.429 slash line last season. Howie Kendrick isn't the bat that could protect Pujols, and neither is Vernon Wells. Trumbo or Trout could be that bat, but they're still a ways out. Their lineup is still in flux, pending the availability of Kendry Morales. A presence like Pujols can change the dynamic of a lineup, but this lineup is respectable at best, not unstoppable as some foresee it.
This will be Pujols' first go-around in the AL, and he will see a majority of pitchers for the first time. He's never faced Felix Hernandez in the regular season. He's faced Justin Verlander a whole 15 times, and he's faced CC Sabathia nine times. And while Pujols doesn't make outs, most of the league should know that by now. It's common knowledge that he'll demolish any pitch thrown over the plate, so will we see a Bondsian effect take place? Perhaps, but once players realize he still makes outs 7 out of 10 trips to the plate, that fear will subside.
Other than competition, this is probably a good thing for baseball as a whole. Could Prince Fielder put more fans into the seats at Safeco Field? Maybe, but knowing The Machine will enter the confines of the Safe definitely will. Pujols will play in Yankee Stadium, Fenway Park and Camden Yards next year, guaranteed. His ability may fade towards the end of his deal, but at least for the next couple of years, fans all over baseball have something to talk about when the Angels come into town. Before Pujols, who was the face of their franchise? Jered Weaver? Torii Hunter? Pujols has that star power, and now with this record-setting contract, he leaves behind a legacy.
It's not the legacy I wish he'd leave behind, though. It would've been great for baseball if he stayed in St. Louis. He would've become an icon, a legend. That guy who turned down the big contract to stay fully connected with the team and city he played his entire career with. That would've been legendary. Now he becomes that guy who left behind three MVPs and two World Series rings for the money.
The Angels overpaid to keep a fringe No. 2 starter. The Angels overpaid to secure a future Hall-of-Famer for 10 years.
Things will be interesting at first next year, but I think it's going to be business as usual in the AL West.
Adam H. Wong can be reached via email at wong@prospectinsider.com. Follow him on Twitter here.
the-wong-way:-what-the-m\'s-are-up-against
Comments
The following 56 comment(s) for this article are shown below:
| 1. By: titans12 on 12-10-2011 12:48:26 This is all true. My fear is if the M's don't try to make a push this year and sign a couple of bats ( Fielder,Beltran,Willingham,Cespedes,etc.) fans will not show up. We will lose a huge fan base while waiting for youth to show up. When they do they will be Cleveland and never compete again. If they are going to rebuild they should start now trade the 20 mil. pitcher for a solid young group and build to the future. |
| 2. By: Jason A. Churchill on 12-10-2011 12:54:16 Fans are already not showing up, titans12. The fanbase loss has already occurred. It may get a tad worse, but there isn't much room for that. And if you trade Felix Hernandez, the rotation is a weakness. You don't win World Series titles with a bunch of No. 2 and 3 starters, you need the staff ace. Boston, Philly, NYY, SF, STL, they all had that leader, that horse at the top with Cy Young credentials. Nothing wrong with trading the younger kids for the bats. |
| 3. By: titans12 on 12-10-2011 13:55:46 World Series ? we only have Felix for 3 more years wouldn't we need some hitting to even think about a W.S. |
| 4. By: Bugeater on 12-10-2011 14:48:06 I would much rather see several solid bats throughout the lineup than 1 big bat. I am not opposed to Prince Fielder, but with the assumption that there is only so much money to spend (unlike Anaheim, Miami and seemingly Texas) we need to be smarter. Get the kid from Cuba for center - send Guti packing with Pineda and Nick Franklin for Gordon from KC and sign Sizemore next year (after his bounce back year) and stick him in right. By 2013 you will have the best outfield in baseball, one of the best pitching staffs, a 3B prospect ready to jump in (Martinez), the best 2nd baseman in the game, solid 1st baseman and the world will begin spinning off its access. |
| 5. By: titans12 on 12-10-2011 15:18:04 Good call bugeater. The M's are known for the international scouts but why are they not linked at all to Cespedes or even Aoki from Japan. I think guys like that will add a buzz and keep the team athletic. I think one vet like Beltran or Willingham also added would help. |
| 6. By: Rudolf on 12-10-2011 16:00:24 While I appreciate your enthusiasm, Bugeater, I would be royally pissed if we traded Pineda, Guti and Franklin for Alex Gordon. I wouldn't send Pineda for Gordon straight up. That's friggin' crazy. If Pineda has a dominant first half in 2012 he's going to have as much helium as anyone in baseball under age 25. Then we get whatever we want if we're willing to move him. Hello Bruce and Grandal. Hello Gordon and Moustakas. |
| 7. By: Timberwolf on 12-10-2011 19:40:36 The Angels are going to be great for the next several years and they will probably win another championship.The Pujols contract will be a net minus for the last five years, but the Angels now have the ability to eclipse the Dodgers and become LA's team. They already paid for Albert's contract with their new TV deal. Brilliant move by Moreno. Bad news for the Mariners in 2012 and 2013, but the Mariners have young talent coming up the pipeline and another super-premium pick in the 2012 amateur draft. I remember some slow moving and highly paid Yankee teams in the late 80's and early 90's loaded with over the hill stars that didn't win that much. It sure would be nice to add a major piece and activate the casual fan base that has mostly disappeared from Safeco but still watches the games on TV. |
| 8. By: Base-Drum on 12-10-2011 20:13:57 I see this signing going 1 of 2 ways. 1. Pujols returns to being an 7+ WAR player for a couple more years, and at least 5+ through 2016. The revenue created by a still-successful Pujols (via winning and merchandise sales... HELLO HISPANIC COMMUNITY IN LA!) turns the Angels into the Yankees of the west. This will only be helped by the Dodgers' financial and PR problems. The new "Yankees of the West" will be able to absorb the final years of his contract and it won't matter much. 2. Injuries or quicker than anticipated decline of Pujols will hurt revenue (by not winning, and not selling as much merchandise as expected), and Angels are crippled by the final years of his contract. I love watching Pujols play, but as an M's fan not wanting to have a perennial huge-spender in my division, I'm hoping for #2. |
| 9. By: JonathanAicardi on 12-10-2011 20:56:06 How about Seattle just takes care of Seattle and not worry about Pujols outside of the batter's box? It was ten years ago that we lost the three best players in baseball in three consecutive years, including the best of the three to our division rival, only to put up a 116-win season that probably never gets repeated. Even with a 10-Win Pujols, whatever. Seattle can only worry about what it can control. If our team builds the right way, who cares what Pujols does? To me, Pujols is a once in a lifetime player who is on the verge of a stunning career and who has earned his right to pursue winning and happiness wherever he wants. I don't think it's cool to be wishing injuries or decline on any player, let alone one we've had the privilege to enjoy. Especially not just because he's in our division. Unless you're Bret Myers. If you're Bret Myers, the rules are different. Because he's a douche. |
| 10. By: Base-Drum on 12-10-2011 21:49:41 Point well taken. My final comment was a little (not completely) tongue-in-cheek. I'm sure someday I'll be excited to tell my kids/grandkids that I saw Albert take Felix deep in person... or Felix strike out Albert to end a complete game shutout. Either way, good or bad for the M's, the sheer magnitude of talent in such a story would be a great memory. I agree Seattle needs to take care of Seattle, obviously it's all they can do, but I'm never rooting for circumstances to shift in a division rival's favor either. |
| 11. By: rotoenquire on 12-10-2011 22:48:07 Appears the M's and Indians are the front runners for Willingham. Sorry, but that does not interest me. We have good OF talent not our position of need. Unless Ichiro is gone, then Willingham makes sense. 1B/DH I kinda can understand with it being a solid upgrade. Another Solid arm I can get behind as well or a Catcher. I just do not see a solid direction with what is being rumored and wanted by so many on the web. |
| 12. By: rocketdawg31 on 12-10-2011 23:36:44 I saw that bit on MLBTradeRumors.com also, roto. But I am interested. Because a proven LF will give us a chance to give our young outfielders like Trayvon Robinson (and others- Saunders and maybe Catricala) the 400 AAA-level ABs they likely need. Willingham has his limitations, and it won't exactly engender a lovefest if we sign him. But he'd make us better on the field and buy us some time to develop in-house options instead of throwin' 'em to the wolves and letting them take their lumps. |
| 13. By: aerichner on 12-11-2011 03:17:57 @11 Simply put, while I dont LOVE Josh Willingham, I trust Jack Z and his group over you. Trust. |
| 14. By: Madison Mariner on 12-11-2011 03:32:00 Is it that the M's have genuine interest in Josh Willingham, or some sportswriter/website thinks they should because of the current roster(with 'holes' in LF and DH) and thus put 2 and 2 together and wrote the article(or more likely tweeted it) that put the M's as 'being in on Willingham'/'being frontrunners for Willingham'. I think it's more likely the latter of the two things. ;) Anyway, as to whether the M's are a good fit or not..sure, they could use him in LF or DH, but he's a right-handed pull hitter with power, meaning his batting line at Safeco won't look too good. And, his defense isn't great in LF, either, meaning that he's more likely to be a DH. I'm not sure what kind of contract you give him(2 years minimum, I'm guessing, and probably 3-4), but signing him makes it that less likely that Prince Fielder would be signed. So, I'm kind of bleh on the proposed move. Would rather try to trade for Rockies' OF Seth Smith, personally--assuming the Rockies are still making him available. He's younger, cheaper, and a left-handed bat to boot. Plus, we could just move Carp to DH(with the occasional OF start if necessary) and use Wells as the platoon partner to Smith/4th OF. (Of course, if you can trade for Seth Smith and still sign Fielder, Mike Carp would be trade bait, in all likelihood in my scenario.) |
| 15. By: titans12 on 12-11-2011 12:29:32 Seth Smith is a platoon outfielder.We have plenty of those don't we? Josh Willingham will not come here nobody wants to.Our attendance for 2012 will fall close to just over 1 Million. Once that starts you will never be able to compete.We are the Orioles! |
| 16. By: universalguru on 12-11-2011 13:20:04 And that 1 million will all be Angels fans rooting for the team to lose! The Mariners have passed the point of no return. No good players will ever play for them. Even if they have good young guys, they will have no veterans to look up to. In 5 years we'll have 25 Chone Figgins on the roster, all overpriced. The Mariners will trade all of the prospects they've developed for crappy old guys. YUNI IS GOING TO RECEIVE A GUARANTEED CONTRACT FROM SEATTLE. THEY'LL NEVER COMPETE FOR A WORLD SERIES, NEVER, EVER, EVER. Point is, chill out. |
| 17. By: DKulich44 on 12-11-2011 14:16:53 Hahaha universalguru, that was awesome. |
| 18. By: Boy9988 on 12-11-2011 14:32:01 To be honest, parts of his argument have merit. It has been made know a number of times that given the opportunity, FA have chosen parks that play a lot better offensively. The Safe might play better to pitchers, but in the AL if you can't hit, you can't win. I don't think moving the left and center field fences in a bit is necessarily a bad thing. Elite pitchers will still be elite pitchers, so I wouldn't worry about Felix that much. After all the owns the Yanks and Red Sox in their own stadiums, and we all know how they play. |
| 19. By: titans12 on 12-11-2011 16:45:17 The main reason players don't want to sign here is there is no hope to ever play for a winner so you just get over the hill hitters that just want to make a team. |
| 20. By: baseballman on 12-11-2011 18:57:57 tians, find a new team since you hate this one so much. |
| 21. By: aerichner on 12-11-2011 19:14:53 agreed - the Angels just spent 300+ million, go root for them. |
| 22. By: rjfrik on 12-11-2011 19:43:15 Seriously. We are Mariners fans. Not Yankees fans or as aerichner says Angels fans. You rants suck titans |
| 23. By: titans12 on 12-11-2011 21:48:26 Rants? I have been an ms fan since they started.i have had partial season tickets since the safe opened.i used to be able to sell tickets i couldnt use the last couple years i cant even give them away.i just wished they would figure out what they are doing.i know alot of people who are giving up thier tickets including myself. i really wished the ownership group would sell them. i love that team but they have become sort of a mess. |
| 24. By: baseballman on 12-11-2011 22:14:38 titans, I suggest you stick around and read this site a little more...you just might learn something about the true state of this organization because your rants couldn't be more wrong |
| 25. By: titans12 on 12-11-2011 22:54:40 Maybe you can share what you think the plan is moving forward |
| 26. By: masonb on 12-12-2011 00:04:04 Titans, Aren't you a season ticket holder? You said you were, and if you are, you should know that the plan moving forward is to develop a team by building through the farm system. See, perhaps you didn't notice, but Bavasi left this team with arguable one of the worst farms systems in the game, and Z has built it to a top 10 system in 3 years. Perhaps that plan is not crystal clear enough for you, but if you spent at least an hour on this site, you'd be able to see that not only is that the obvious plan, but that the current FO is doing a damn good job at executing that plan. If you wanna act like the sky is falling because they haven't brought home a title in the last three years, that's fine, but this probably isn't the place, because people here understand what the big picture is. Go root for another team if you don't understand the plan |
| 27. By: Boy9988 on 12-12-2011 00:16:19 Well I at least can understand why titan is mad. And its not like there is a whole lot of history to say he is wrong. Most hitters we had have left and not too many have ever decided to show up here. But, with that said, JZ is doing a damn good job at executing his plan and we should give him the next couple of years to see if it works out. At some point, when the youngsters have grown up, then it will come time to bring in the veterans and pay the kids their do. We will know ownerships true intentions when that time comes. Maybe even with how the Prince Fielder negotiations go. But I too don't believe he is worth $200 mill, so there are limits. |
| 28. By: sexymarinersfan on 12-12-2011 01:07:09 Jason, excellent article as always. I like the direction this team is headed. I think Z has done an amazing job rebuilding our farm system. I understand Mariner fans frustrations. I too have a hard time watching our beloved Mariners lose. It's even harder to watch when we fail to score. My post is more of just a comment rather than a question. I've been reading a lot of Mariner blogs lately, mainly due to the "Prince Fielder sweepstakes." I've been hearing some rumors and rants about how no big time offensive players would like to play here in Seattle because of our park dimensions. While that may be true I thought about this. We have the #3 pick in next years draft. We also have a nice young group of top arms coming up through the minor leagues. If we end up taking another pitcher like Appell, Giolito, or McCullers because they are the BPA, that's a good thing. I for one would much rather deal from a point of strength than not. My point is this. Rather than trying to overpay hitters to come to Seattle, eventually we're going to have to trade some of these big time arms, and when that happens it seems as though you have a better shot of getting that certain hitter that your looking for that fits your ball club, as opposed to just randomly get into a bidding war for the best stick out on the market. I'm all for signing Prince Fielder if that's the direction the FO wants to go. However I do like the idea of having room to holding onto our core talent in the future or making other moves like we did in '01 when we missed out on ARod and went and signed Jeff Nelson, Bret Boone, Ichiro, and some other change(Sele and Rhodes...or something like that). As long as we keep getting better and acquiring more talent each season I'm fine with that. Keep the faith M's fans. Z will get us there. |
| 29. By: universalguru on 12-12-2011 02:50:39 Look Titan, you either got patience or you don't. We've finally got someone in charge that's building a solid foundation before investing in a house to sit upon it. Accept that and find peace in it or you might as well start following another team. If you can't get excited about a minor league system with 3 or possibly 4 of the top 50 prospects in baseball on top of the ML ready talent then I don't know how to make you happy. |
| 30. By: nighthawk180 on 12-12-2011 04:23:00 Most people here are diehard mariner fans. Titan I see where you are coming from. Guys really what have the mariners done in the last 10 years let alone that last 3. I love the mariners and such but a quick look from the outside it looks pretty grim. I go to college at the moment and the people i talk to about the mariners have the same ideas of the mariners. They have sucked it up for so long it doesnt matter. It's the way its been for a while now. We who have seen the inner workings and know more about it then the average joe see a different story. In the last 3 years things have gone from pathetic to promising in a very short time, but the majors still stink. The patch work teams and such havent really done much. I think thats where Titans opinion is coming from. Like others have said Titan this new front office from Jack Z on down is doing a great job of turning this thing around. Now is the point where we can start to see the fruition of their hard work. I am just as frustrated as you are at the lack of production at the major league level but it is soon going to change and it has already started. I want things to start moving in our offseason also. This is starting to look like patience isnt really the best move at the moment but i base that off of the current "rumors" that are circling around right now. I would like there to be something done this week that i could say thats a good start but im getting a little impatience myself. I trust Z will get something going soon. Sry for the long post, Nighthawk180 |
| 31. By: on 12-12-2011 09:32:40 Look Titan, you either got patience or you don't. We've finally got someone in charge that's building a solid foundation before investing in a house to sit upon it. Accept that and find peace in it or you might as well start following another team. If you can't get excited about a minor league system with 3 or possibly 4 of the top 50 prospects in baseball on top of the ML ready talent then I don't know how to make you happy. |
| 32. By: Marlin Man on 12-12-2011 09:46:10 I, like Titan, need to get more "patience" (whatever the hell THAT is)- 2012 being mny 32nd year of season tickets. hANG IN THERE BOYS one of these daYS.......................................................m.m. |
| 33. By: titans12 on 12-12-2011 10:22:44 Thanks nighthawk. look i will always be a big ms fan they are my team.i am like many fans tired of investing so much time and money to see them die slowly. i wished we could commit to a total rebuild that can be exciting but this team will hang onto a 20 mil pitcher during a time when 90 losses is a guarentee.we could get four young very nice players from the yankees red sox texas etc. and really get this youth movement going. |
| 34. By: baseballman on 12-12-2011 10:50:17 Really titan? Why are you so obsessed with how much Felix makes? You make it out to seem he's some 35 year old albatross, when in fact he's arguably the best pitcher in the game at 25! I mean seriously, the Angels just signed CJ Wilson for basically the same deal we have Felix locked down for. It's fantasy land to assume that the Yankees or Red Sox are going to overpay with 4 or 5 young players. Like JAC said, when was the last time a team won the WS without a true ace? |
| 35. By: masonb on 12-12-2011 10:58:26 titans, You are advocating trading Felix now? Are you serious? Ignore the fact that he has the potential to be one of the best pitchers EVER and is certainly on his way towards that. Ignore the fact that he's paid under market value for what he brings. The reason he will never be traded is because there isn't a team out there that is a combination of willing and stupid enough to give up what it's going to take to get him. Outside of maybe Mike Stanton and Clayton Kershaw, he is the most valuable player in baseball trade wise. The reason he won't be traded to the Yankees is because Z doesn't want their overrated prospects. Same thing with Boston. It's going to take more than 4 "nice" players. About the only team I see that has the assets to get Felix is the Nationals and that's if they offered Strasburg and Harper and some more stuff on top of that. The way for this team to get better is not to trade Felix Hernandez. Just get that out of your head. The way for this team to get better is to develop a great farm system and then spend money on free agents that compliment homegrown talent. Even the great Yankees teams of the late 90's were built that way. You just have to be patient. It's not going to happen overnight, and once again, considering what the state of this organization was when Bavasi left, it's remarkable that they have acquired so much talent in three years. |
| 36. By: Edman on 12-12-2011 11:22:52 Trading Felix now is like putting up a white flag before the battle has begun. You can surrender to the Angels and Rangers if you want, but not me. In baseball, anything can happen. Will it be a battle? Sure it will. But, it may also push the kids even harder to be their best. Competition tends to bring separate those who can, from those who can't. Paraphrasing the King in the book "The Phantom Tollbooth" after Milo successfully completes his mission. "If I had told you that it was an impossible mission, you would never have taken it." |
| 37. By: titans12 on 12-12-2011 11:27:27 Well its not gonna happen while felix is here.do you really think they will compete during the years he has left. |
| 38. By: masonb on 12-12-2011 11:34:01 titans, I'm curious. Can you explain exactly why it's not going to happen while Felix is here other than to cite your sky is falling, woe is me, we couldn't get the likes of Crawford and Tejada and Zito to sign albatross contracts to sign here attitude? Can you also lay out plainly which hitters you are referring to exactly have decided not to sign here because they are turned off by the park? I'm just curious as to who exactly you are referring to. Please do so in a non-trolling way if possible |
| 39. By: Rudolf on 12-12-2011 11:34:24 I certainly think we'll compete! Maybe not in 2012, but 2013 or 2014 could be great years. I think most of us will agree that we want to EXTEND Felix, not trade him. And if at the 2013 trade deadline we look like dead meat and 2014 looks bleak as well we can begin to entertain the idea of trading Felix. |
| 40. By: Edman on 12-12-2011 11:37:29 Absolutely. Anything can happen. Who saw the Giants winning the World Series two years ago? They didn't have a great line-up on paper. But, you don't play baseball on paper, unless you're into Strato-O-Matic or APBA dice baseball. I know one thing for sure, if you are a team that gives up on a continual basis, you will breed an even worse atmosphere that already exists. If you don't think so, I suggest you head on over to the PI Mariners messageboard. There are plenty who would support you. |
| 41. By: titans12 on 12-12-2011 12:22:26 I think edman is coach from survivor the dragon slayer |
| 42. By: Shawnuel on 12-12-2011 13:04:01 Tampa Bay, 2009, Arizona in 2011. there are so many examples of teams that made sudden and a little surprising jumps to the head of their division because of the maturation of young talent and some wise roster additions. |
| 43. By: titans12 on 12-12-2011 13:14:16 Mason they have a historicly bad offense.no legit no. 3 or 4 hitter so oposing pitchers dont have anyone to pitch around. they bring in players like cust and only makes it worse.you can believe that they are on the right track that is up to you. I see this team becoming totally irrelavant and that is my opinion |
| 44. By: baseballman on 12-12-2011 13:24:01 After reading comment 43, while I don't want to say you're a lost cause, I guess you can believe whatever you want to believe regardless if it's truthful or not. But I will say this, do you understand that an organization is made up of more than just a 25 man roster? |
| 45. By: masonb on 12-12-2011 13:45:56 Historically bad offense or recently bad offense. There's a difference. I'd personally characterize Griffey, AROD, Olerud, Boone, Buhner, Sexson, Beltre as pretty damn capable 3 and 4 hole hitters. If you want to say that they haven't had a capable 3/4 hitter recently you have a little better argument there. If you see this team as totally irrelevant and going in the wrong direction than you are most definitely on the wrong website. This team has a very bright future and if you want to blatantly ignore the facts, that's your thing, but don't be expecting to come on this site and not get called out for having stupid opinions. Quit treating recent history like it applies to all instances past and present. |
| 46. By: Edman on 12-12-2011 15:15:04 titans, you don't wanna know what I think of you....so let's not use cute little snipes. |
| 47. By: rjfrik on 12-12-2011 16:11:30 LOL Edman. Geez. |
| 48. By: Edman on 12-12-2011 16:21:01 The geez is that you felt you needed to comment further. |
| 49. By: titans12 on 12-12-2011 17:27:52 Edman i was just having fun with #36 lighten up man. |
| 50. By: rotoenquire on 12-12-2011 18:09:45 We as M's fans have a different set of circumstances than most other teams have. We have a C. Armstrong who has never taken this team to the World Series(On most teams would be gone already). Under his oversight we have done a lot of bad things and very little good things. We have H. Lincoln(On most Teams would be gone already) who is more of a guy looking at the dollars and is happy with treading at 500 with a good season now and then as long as there is a profit. You have a Japanese ownership out of touch with MLB Business and signings and is kinda more a fan when it comes to his local guys. Also the Japanese business way does not apply well here in the way of personnel. On the # you have JackZ and a GREAT! farm crew and set of scouts Local and International. Ichiro's style tho great to watch those first few years has soured a bit. I think mostly to that outlandish contract. You have a fan base wanting to keep up with the Jones's and not realizing we are a year away from really needing to spend on that one or two big bats we need. We are picking #3 overall in this next years draft and with that. We will have even more Monstrous pitching depth. One more year of rebuild is more than likely and next year there will a larger push for F/A a cheaper Ichiro if not off the books. And far better knowledge of were we are with our young players. Not to mention the ones that will be ready next season. Like Franklin and Martinez in the way of bats. Long winded, but that is how it is... |
| 51. By: StandinPat on 12-12-2011 19:07:35 I'm lost how people can say that they see titans point of view, it's absolutely asinine. The ridiculous rants started with the notion that the Ms can't sign big-time free agents based on the Angels signing of two players that the Ms had no interest in signing. That makes no sense. Next rant goes on about how the Ms should look to sign Willingham, the one after that how "will not come here nobody wants to." Again, no sense. Next we have "The main reason players don't want to sign here is there is no hope to ever play for a winner so you just get over the hill hitters that just want to make a team" This contains two ridiculous notions in one. 1) The notion that players won't sign here is 100% false, and anyone who has been watching the Ms in the 2000s knows this. Beltre, Sexson, Washburn, Batista, Silva and Figgins, along with extensions to Felix and Ichiro. Obviously FAs will sign here, it just takes money, which is something the Ms haven't had recently due to the signings of everyone on that list not named Felix. 2) The notion that the only FAs we can get here are ones that are past their prime, is kinda like complaining that the only used cars you can find have all had previous owners. That's how FA works. It's a bunch of older players, past their peak, or close to it, for maximum dollars. I believe there has only been 3 FAs in the past two years that have been under 30, you can't want the Ms to be players in that market AND complain that all that's available are aging players. Which brings me to this, the whole reason the Ms are in the situation that they are in is due to the previous regime neglecting the farm system and sinking huge dollars into the FA market in an attempt at a quick fix. To sit here and complain about the current state they are in, but then clamor for the same road that got them in this state to begin with is beyond irrational. If you can't see that anyone besides the top maybe 8 market teams can't afford to be annual players for the top FAs AND field a successful team, then you haven't been paying attention to the current dynamics of the MLB. "they bring in players like cust and only makes it worse" How did Cust "make it worse?" He was a low cost move that didn't work out, it happens. Obviously the club wasn't ready to hand over the gig to Carp, and maybe he wasn't ready to have it handed to him. You simply aren't going to be able to plug every whole with a big bucks FA or young stud player. There will always have to be some middle ground, and with that, some Jack Custs. This wasn't, we think we can contend with Brad Wilkerson, it was a $2.5 mil placeholder on a guy who was still pretty decent the year previously. Obviously, as another poster stated, you can believe what you want. I just don't know that anyone else cares for the baseless, absurd negativity your message is bringing. |
| 52. By: Edman on 12-12-2011 19:11:53 rotoenquire, you should try to stick to facts, instead of intermixing your personal opinions of Armstrong, Lincoln and the ownership group. While you're quick to note the lack of a World Series, they both played a part in those great teams from the mid 90's to 2002. You remember, the 2001 team that tied the record for most wins in a season (116 to be exact). So it has not been entirely a failure. I won't dismiss their roll, but it is certainly not true that they only bring failure to the table. Had it not been for the events surrounding 9-11, and the sentiment developed in New York post the falling of the Twin Towers, the M's very well could have won the World Series. The Yankees at the end of the regular season were not particularly impressive. But that event gave them inspiration to help a city that was grieving. Your comments about the ownership group content with being .500 are off the mark. Jason has addressed that a couple times, noting that they do have a desire to win. There are other obvious tints of prejudice in your comments, but I'll end it there. Your comments about Ichiro's contract are way off the mark. Compared to other superstars, he was not given an extraordinary contract. He's not been the problem with the Mariners the last few years. Neither he or Albert Pujols in his prime, could have unburied the Mariners from their great lack of quality ballplayers. He's the target, because he's the highest paid. He had one bad season, last year, as compared to the other above average seasons. Yes, we're still rebuilding, but focus the blame accordingly. It started with Gillick. The organization paid a high price a series of bad drafts. Bavasi continued that trend, along with some bad trades. But ultimately it does not fall on Ichiro. His contract didn't burden the team. Contracts like Silva, Figgins, etc. dealt the biggest blows, along with a nearly worthless farm system. As is a truly American tradition, fortified by our politicians, don't focus on the problem, focus on the perception. It's easier to sell fear. |
| 53. By: rotoenquire on 12-12-2011 23:44:08 Edman, giving a lead off hitter(with no pop) TOP star HR hitter money is something that is way out of the norm. Ichiro was a Major Star here and with our Japanese market base not really nationally. You see him in National Campains like Braun and Jeter? Also you talk to most people who follow the M's and they all will agree to the perception of what I said. And that in all honesty in most markets these guys would not have stayed anywhere near so long in there jobs. The long droughts are not made up for by the small smattering of great moments 95 and the 116 win years do not make up for how many years of YAWN! And if you have read my posts in the past. I have been advocating a wait and see mentality. We are rebuilding for the future. Why I see us not going big on F/A until next year. We have one more full season of evaluations coming up. Take off the Blue tinted glasses for a bit and be real on this. Also most of what I had to say was geared to the insipid arguing with the posts on this thread. As for selling FEAR.. I am a realist, I don't see the m's making that big F/A signing. the Cubs are most likely going to get Fielder. I would like to see him here, but I don't see the fit as I see it right know. We have a good young group at 1B and DH. Upton in 2013!!! |
| 54. By: Edman on 12-13-2011 02:19:54 rotoenquire, you're free to believe what you want. If you don't think that the Yankees would have paid the same or more money to have a superstar like Ichiro leading off for them, good luck with that. It has NOTHING to do with hitting homeruns. Not really nationally? Really, that's what you think? How many times was he voted in by the fans as an All-Star starter? LMFAO....yeah, a relative unknown. National campaigns? You ever see the All-Star game advertisements? How many other Japanese players did you seen in those ads? Perception isn't reality. Often times, it's what you wish to see. Perception has driven many wrongs in this world. You're free to belief what you wish. I'm tired or wait and see. They were rebuilding. Now is the time to start building. They have a young core, build around it. |
| 55. By: rotoenquire on 12-13-2011 23:23:36 Are you really trying to compare the wrongs of the world to Baseball.. Baseball is a game ruined by adults. And no nobody else would have paid that much for Ichiro and as for being voted to the All Star game that was hugely driven by the Japanese vote. Oh, great he got a lot of pop during the All Star game as did most of the all Stars who were there. Name one other leadoff non HR hitting batter to get that kinda money? You at times have some great points Edman, but at times you really miss the boat. Trying listening to National baseball shows as well as the local ones. May open your eyes a bit more.. |
| 56. By: Edman on 12-14-2011 11:24:20 And no nobody else would have paid that much for Ichiro and as for being voted to the All Star game that was hugely driven by the Japanese vote. Prove either of your statements, especially the grossly overatated comment about the Japanese vote. Really, the Japanese population is that large in the United States? I find it hard to believe that there's a Japanese agenda behind getting Ichiro voted into the All-Star game. Missing the boat would be making unfounded statements like that. You obviously believe it, but that doesn't make it so. If you could actually prove it, you would have. And yes, had Ichiro been a Free Agent, you can bet that some MLB team would have matched or beat Seattle's offer. Yes, that's an opinion. But at least I state it as such. |
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