| By Chris Crawford |  | By 12-07-2010 |
Rick Randall on why the M's should get Greinke
UPDATE 4:51 PM: Shannon Drayer is reporting via twitter than the Mariners could be targeting Luis Valbuena to play second base. Most will remember that Valbuena was a part of the three-team trade that sent J.J. Putz to the Mets and Franklin Gutierrez to Seattle. The left-handed hitting Valbuena was awful last year putting up a OPS .531, but is an above-average defender and just recently turned 25. He doesn't provide a lot of upside, but he would be an upgrade over Josh Wilson, so there's that.
- Chris Crawford
Valbuena's development stalled when he was rushed to the big leagues by Cleveland, but if he can be had for cheap, Seattle should snag him, because there is still some upside there. He has a good approach at the plate, has the skills and physical tools to be a good defender at second and can spell the starter at shortstop.
At the plate, he does have some strength and his swing and bat speed combine with good hand-eye coordination to create the potential for average power (peaking at 12-15 homers, 30 doubles, .400+ slugging percentages) to go with the decent batting average and on-base percentages.
He's had problems with his game plan at the plate, allowing the pitcher to get ahead consistently and then trying to hit his way out of a pitcher's count. But against pitchers with good stuff yet below-average control and command, Valbuena produces, which tells me he just needs to figure out how he can get into hitters counts more often. He's willing, capable, and he's still young enough at 25 to get back on track as a young prospective big-leaguer.
He's never going to be a star, and there's still a good chance he's nothing more than a reserve infielder. But there is also upside left, so while he's not the solution to any of the club's major problems, he's as ideal a stop-gap as it gets without committing millions of dollars or costly trade assets.
- Jason A. Churchill
UPDATE 3:18 PM: M's deal close.
UPDATE 1:52 PM: Ken Rosenthal is reporting that Kevin Gregg is receiving multiple-year offers from several teams, and that the M's are in the mix. Gregg has always been able to miss bats -- averaging over a strikeout an inning the last two years -- but has always struggled with command issues. With the amount of interest the M's have shown in relief pitchers though, it would seem that a League or Aardsma move could be coming, and could be coming soon.
UPDATE 1:01 PM: Infield options expanding
UPDATE 12:48 PM: As we reported yesterday as the subject pertained to the Mariners, the Diamondbacks have pretty much taken Justin Upton off the trade block, according to ESPN.com's Jayson Stark.
The d-backs will "listen" but are not out aggressively looking for the greatest deal of all time anymore, since, well, that isn't going to happen. I think they were counting on the Yankees and Red sox being involved heavily, but that hasn't -- and won't -- happen this winter.
The Rangers were sitting around waiting for a chance to make a play, but their attention is all on Cliff Lee right now. Expect this to come up again later this winter, but again, don't expect the M's to be heavily involved. They'd like to be, it just doesn't work right now.
- Jason A. Churchill
UPDATE 12:22PM: The M's have shown interest in a couple of left-handed pitchers in the forms of Mark Hendrickson,Randy Choate and Dennys Reyes. Hendrickson could be considered a swing option, with experience in the rotation as well as the pen. Choate on the other hand, has been strictly a LOOGY (last year he appeared in 85 games and only accrued 36 innings), holding left handers to a .526 OPS last year, and the same could be said of Reyes. Considering Seattle hasn't had that type of option out of the pen in some time, both Reyes and Choate make sense. Hendrickson is pretty much a better Garrett Olson, so again -- depending on price -- he also might be a nice target as well.
UPDATE 11:01AM: The Mariners, according to Tim Brown of Yahoo! Sports, are one of at least three clubs interested in Jorge Cantu, who struggled mightily at the plate last year with the Marlins and Rangers.
I have to believe that the M's view him as a reserve that can handle both first and third, and second in a pinch (he's played over 200 games there in his career), rather than a candidate to play regularly at any one position.
He's never played outfield, so that isn't likely to be part of the equation.
- Jason A. Churchill
UPDATE 9:48 AM: Seattle eyeing second basemen
UPDATE 9:26 AM: The M's and starting pitching
UPDATE 9:12 AM: More on the catching situation; M's backing off the relief market?
UPDATE 8:51 AM: Mike Salk and Joel Sherman are reporting that the M's are taking a look at Miguel Olivo possibly. Before everyone vomits thinking about his previous time here, this isn't necessarily a bad move. Olivo has improved considerably since then, slugging nearly .450 in his last three years. He would likely struggle in Safeco Field, but for low dollars Olivo makes a bit of sense.
Yesterday, we saw a whole lot of nothing, but we started to hear the rumblings of what exactly the M's are targeting. Left handed bats, versatility, and the possibility of something much bigger.
What'll happen today? Jason, Rick and I will be sure to update you on the latest information as soon as it breaks -- there was a lot of good stuff yesterday, today should be even bigger.
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Comments
The following 36 comment(s) for this article are shown below:
| 1. By: BrettJMiller on 12-07-2010 11:12:25 "Subscribers can get all the latest" link is broken, Chris. |
| 2. By: zackr on 12-07-2010 11:26:46 Rick's greinke post is exactly the short term thinking that got us league for morrow last year. Trade away years of future talet for the prayer of being mildly competitive in 2012? He can't be serious. |
| 3. By: mazono on 12-07-2010 11:32:32 Upton Rumors dead. Woot! |
| 4. By: baseballman on 12-07-2010 11:52:44 Re 2: First of all, it wasnt just League for Morrow. Second of all, you couldnt be more wrong. Are you saying it was a mistake to trade for Cliff Lee last year? "Mildly" competitive? You can't be serious |
| 5. By: Rick Randall on 12-07-2010 12:21:51 zackr, Calling 2012's chances a prayer -- YOU can't be serious. Sure, maybe they aren't able to contend in 2012. But YOU don't know that -- nobody knows that with any certainty. 2011? Sure. They have so little chance to be competitive -- it's clear. Adding Greinke does a lot of things, including influence other players to come to Seattle. Not by himself, but by teaming up Felix, he gives agents and players a reason to believe the M's can compete, just like Lee last year. League for Morrow? That was all about Jack trading away the last regime's first round "mistakes." Just as he did with Aumont and Clement. That was not short-term thinking at all. It was brainless. |
| 6. By: d2ret on 12-07-2010 12:32:25 Just a thought. Why doesnt Truinfels name ever come up as a possible trade chip? Whats his value like right now Jason? Pineda, Truinfel, ++ for Greinke? |
| 7. By: shemberry on 12-07-2010 12:52:24 I don't know if it would get it done, but if the Royals called up right now and offered Greinke for Pineda, Franklin, Lueke and Saunders, I would do it in a heartbeat. |
| 8. By: Chris Crawford on 12-07-2010 13:17:31 Triunfel is going to have to be the second or third part of a piece in a trade, and I would be stunned if the Royals considered him anything but cannon fodder. Very unlikely. |
| 9. By: zackr on 12-07-2010 13:22:04 5. Okay, let's do it. I'll call texas and ask them to implode their roster and tv deal, and give aneheim a jingle to please consider not spending 140 mil a year on payroll. Then, maybe we'd compete with grieke in '12. Sorry for the post being devoid of spelling in all caps, if you're into that kind of thing. |
| 10. By: 01v-dubs on 12-07-2010 13:32:30 Just curious Jason, but why does Peguero project to move off of SS? is it simply projecting he'll grow out of the position, or is it a lack of athleticism thing? |
| 11. By: bunvt on 12-07-2010 13:39:46 A little over the top there Zackr, who knows what any team will look like for sure in 2012? so there's always hope. I hate to use apples to oranges example, but how many people in 2008-2009 would have predicted SF Giants champions in 2010? |
| 12. By: zackr on 12-07-2010 13:54:53 Yeah, my point is that in order for us to compete in that scenario, we have to not only be pretty lucky with our moves, but also with 2 other teams' situation. That's such a low percentage play that letting go of great pieces that will help us in '13-'15 (when hopefully texas and anheim are in a weaker position) is the prudent thing to do. I don't understand the argument of greinke helping big guys sign with us. We don't have the money to get big guys right now, and although we will have more dough in '12' we don't have the supporting cast to make a run yet. We need to be patient and let this roster build. |
| 13. By: shortstop9 on 12-07-2010 14:36:57 If we can't trade for a hitter we should get in on Ordonez before hw is gone. We should also try to get O. Hudson for 1 year and Navarro for C-he is younger and left handed. |
| 14. By: Mackie on 12-07-2010 15:37:49 If we need to be looking at what the other teams are doing within our division in order to compete better, maybe part of our strategy should be to keep someone like Greinke out of the hands of a team like Texas. Which sounds better: Texas with Lee and Greinke, or Seattle with Felix and Greinke? Texas is already ahead of us... if we can keep them from getting much farther ahead, I'm fine with it. I want us to compete with the rest of the division not just ON the field, but off it as well. If the Mariners could do it with a deal centered around Pineda and including lower prospects, why not? |
| 15. By: Mackie on 12-07-2010 15:39:59 Although we shouldn't assume Lee will sign with Texas; he could still go to the Yankees or elsewhere, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if he stays with the Rangers. |
| 16. By: baseballman on 12-07-2010 15:45:34 You think anything could be serious about the two young bats we inquired about? Or just kicking the tires? I would love to add either guy, and they arent gonna cost anywhere near Upton so our top 4 (Pineda, Ackley, Smoak and Franklin) should all be safe |
| 17. By: sexymarinersfan on 12-07-2010 16:10:27 What I love about Jack Z is that he and his team are great evaluators of talent. If they see a piece that doesn't fit their scheme, then they trade it in or get rid of it and keep looking until they obtain it. The additions of Cliff Lee and Chone Figgins were to help improve upon the previous winning record this team had to help make a playoff run. Jack didn't empty out the cupboard to acquire any talent. He gave up just the right amount, and made available the players who he was willing to part with. He knew that if the M's sank and were not able to stay in contention, he could net just as big a return if not more at the deadline, or get back what he had lost at the end of season through the draft, worst case scenario. "Brilliant!" He just tried to do the same thing with Adrian Gonzalez. He's bringing in his own pieces and players to increase the influx of young talent to this team to help compete on the big league club. If you give up Michael Pineda, not only are you getting a possible replacement in Gerrit Cole, Matthew Purke, or Sonny Gray in next year's draft, but you're getting a sure fire CY Young Award winner in Zack Greinke who beat out our own Ace King Felix! He's proven himself in this league. There's more guarantee in Greinke succeeding in Seattle and being successful than Pineda who has never pitched in the majors and reach the exact same stardom. Yes it would hurt to lose Franklin, but there's another couple of youngsters in Marcus Littlewood and Esteilon Peguero (who we just signed yesterday) to come in eventually down the line. This is move that makes complete sense. Will we compete in 2011, probably not, but you need to establish young pieces to fill holes in which to build upon. You have 2 years in which to fill in the pieces around Greinke and Felix. Smoak, Ackley, Saunders, Moore, and Lueke are all going to get their chance to show what they've got next year. I love this idea. This is the best idea I've heard all season. It doesn't cost us a ton of money. You don't have to go out and bargain some kind of contract. You simply establish a set limit in which you are willing to offer a certain number of prospects and make sure that you can at least get that in return if it doesn't pan out correctly. But it's a greater shot that it will work than Franklin and Pineda both becoming All-Stars let alone CY Young Award winners or MVP's in this league. Great read! Even greater idea! Wow! Why hadn't I thought of this. |
| 18. By: FatBat on 12-07-2010 17:57:17 A reserve Bat? Is this the Cantu update? I like both the prospects listed, but I can't see that happening only because that would give us a incredabley in-expierience ball club next year. Too many young players at possitions of need, and void of veteran dependability. I know youth is a good thing but too much can lead to problems on the field. I think Jack touched on such a senario earlier. But, then again if you get a Vet. bat at LF ( Saunders another year at AAA) and a Vet. bat at DH, then I guess it wouldnt be that bad, and I would be all for it! I'm thinking it would most likely be three team trade, as I don't see us having anyone either team would want that is available. The Gregg thing realy has my interest though! I could see us signing a guy like that and trading Aardsma, actualy would love it! |
| 19. By: Edman on 12-07-2010 18:38:04 Why in the world would you go sign Gregg, who likely would cost as much if not more than Aardsma after arbitration? I can't at all see it unless Aardsma is one part of a bigger deal. There are a ton of relievers available, Aardsma's not so special that teams would rather trade for him than sign a Free Agent. |
| 20. By: FatBat on 12-07-2010 19:04:44 True Edman, not so special. But a team or teams may only want a spot closer for this season, providing another year of growth from a setup guy or someone already under team control. who knows. But signing a Gregg for two or three fixed yrs, alows the team flexability to trade Aardsma and League in need to aquire a bat, or bats. Its clear there are many relievers available in free agency, not so for any hitters, we could use or need. Signing a Gregg, or for that matter a Fuentes? would inable the team to use Aardsma or League to get something else. There are clearly teams out there interested in both. With Gregg You know what your getting. 70 innings 3.5 era and 70K's 30svs? Aardsma could take another step back, who knows. But that would be one reason. Just saying, |
| 21. By: StandinPat on 12-07-2010 19:42:45 Fatbat, Gregg isn't great and Fuentes is even worse and wants something $6 mil a year...no thanks. Ed, why is this concept still so elusive? Benoit just got 3/18, Putz got 2/10 with an option and Soriano's gonna get 3/30+. Aardsma at 1/4.5 has value to someone, and if the prospect that team gives up is less than or equal to the pick they might lose, how is that not something teams would look into? |
| 22. By: Lailoken on 12-07-2010 19:48:17 sexymarinersfan, Greinke is solid but I'd rather the M's have two cost-effective young aces than an older around for two years at 13.5 million per ace. He may be a safer bet to succeed but the M's aren't realistic contenders at this point. Sure, he could be flipped like Lee was but he won't be acquired for as sweet a package as Lee. Pineda is far better than Ramirez or Aumont. What I would like to see is the M's jump in as the third party in a Greinke swap. If the Blue Jays are after Greinke as rumored then Saunders, Aardsma, & prospects for Travis Snider & prospects could be a great move. Snider has the power to clear the left field fence, would be a nice middle of the order complement to Smoak, & would be a long-term cost-controlled answer. As a local boy, you could be reasonably sure he'd re-sign later on too. |
| 23. By: 01v-dubs on 12-07-2010 19:57:13 I like that idea Lailoken, doesn't seem likely to happen, but I like your reasoning. Snyder seems like Jack Z type player (depends on his defense, but I think its viewed as at least averageish) |
| 24. By: Lailoken on 12-07-2010 20:10:53 Fangraphs is mixed on his D. In 2009 he posted -13.3 UZR/150 over 77 games but fared much better in 2010 w/ a positive 10.4 over 82 games. He does have opposite field power which is why I said the LF bit: http://www.bluejayhunter.com/2010/01/hill-lind-and-snider-torontos-young.html |
| 25. By: milksteak on 12-07-2010 22:01:18 Keep seeing Carlos Quentin's name as possibly being available, he's a great hitter when healthy and under team control through 2012 (per Cot's). Morosi mentions they may be looking for bullpen help. Sounds like a decent match for the M's if true. Could Aardsma + $$ or League + $ get something done? More? Less? Not a good fit? |
| 26. By: Chris Crawford on 12-07-2010 22:56:58 Quentin had a UZR 150 of -32.7. No thank you. Decent hitter, but hes strictly a DH. |
| 27. By: slick on 12-08-2010 01:34:43 Yohan Flande released from phillies 40 man roster. I saw him in the 2009 futures game tons of ground balls and a lefty. Might not be a bad pick up. |
| 28. By: shortstop9 on 12-08-2010 09:14:59 There is no way Greinke will waive his no trade to come here.Nobody wants to come here.We are starting to lose out on players to Balt. and the Pirates.He might as well stay with K.C. they are a much better team. |
| 29. By: masonb on 12-08-2010 09:40:23 Who are you saying we are losing out to the Pirates and Orioles shortstop? Diaz and Uehara? You do realize that Diaz got a two year deal for 4.25mil. Would you have been willing to do that? I sure wouldn't. When the rumors are that Jack has a 10-12mil warchest, I really wouldn't want to tie up 20-25% of that in Diaz. No thanks. And Uehara? Just another generic bullpen arm. Relax man. I don't think that these two guys or other like free agents signing with the Orioles and Pirates would be indicative of Greinke's decision. Not to mention that all reports are that he would waive his no-trade to go anywhere. Saying nobody wants to come here is a pretty bold statement. Players, especially ones like Diaz and Uehara, are going to go where the money is the best. Plain and simple. So, I for one am glad that Jack didn't offer Diaz a multi-year deal for that much. Good player but that's not a very good deal IMO. |
| 30. By: jgstecker on 12-08-2010 11:12:04 Looks like Jack Cust will be our DH next year. Other than Thome, he's probably the best available bat for the job. |
| 31. By: Willmore on 12-08-2010 11:14:23 25-30 homer power, walks, lefty. Probably the best we could have hoped for. Jason, was this the "M's deal close" guy? |
| 32. By: shortstop9 on 12-08-2010 11:15:16 Why would Greinke want to come here? And the M's are on his 22 team list so he still can veto the trade and probably would.There is no other franchise in worse shape.Plain and simple the loses have made us what we are and we are heading for another 95-100 loss season. |
| 33. By: masonb on 12-08-2010 11:46:27 ok shortstop 9, that's a completely different question. I don't know why he would want to come here honestly. I won't pretend to know the answer, but I could suggest that maybe he would see the young potential and the fact that he would team up with Felix at the top of the rotation to form a pretty good 1-2 punch. You said though that no one wants to come here, and that other players would rather sign with Pirates and Orioles. The question I had for you was why do you feel that way? |
| 34. By: shortstop9 on 12-08-2010 12:32:04 The Orioles are at least trying to compete even though they have no chance in that division.A team like the Pirates have at least commited to rebuild mode(every year)but the payroll is low and are expected to lose,although they have signed a few this year.Spending between 90-100 million and losing 100 plus games is a disaster. |
| 35. By: rjfrik on 12-08-2010 14:28:05 shortstop9 this same old schtick is getting old. |
| 36. By: shortstop9 on 12-08-2010 14:39:20 Yea your right they are solid!Only supposed to say positive things here. |
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